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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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theresnogodbutme (100 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
taking odds on bombing - syria/iran, obama/romney
i say if obama is elected, 70% chance syria gets it, 60% iran.
if romney i say 80% bombs away on syria, 60% on iran.
and of course, drones/cia/funding terrorist organizations in those states 100% on both, no question.
any takers?
9 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
16 Oct 12 UTC
DID YOU ALL MAKE IT THROUGH THE EARTHQUAKE!
IS EVERYONE OK?
74 replies
Open
cecewolf (123 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Cheating?
How do I find out if others are cheating? If something looks suspicious, who to contact?
3 replies
Open
BannedPlayer (0 DX)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Banned???
Can anyone tell me what evidence there is for this charecter to be banned?! http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php
3 replies
Open
y2kjbk (4846 D(G))
17 Oct 12 UTC
Need USA replacement
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=98415

Game is coming to a close, and USA vanished. Since not all parties want a draw yet, we would love a replacement.
0 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Kewl
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2012/10/17/een-door-mensen-aangedreven-helikopter-amerikaanse-studenten-hebben-m-bijna/
9 replies
Open
Bonaparte23 (695 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
EoG GB quicky
gameID=102088

Worst game I've played on this website. Annoyed to hell by ignorant Austria and cd's all over the place.
2 replies
Open
theresnogodbutme (100 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
infiltration/corporate espionage/hiding/lying - evil?
can we have a consensus that people who lie/cheat/steal are evil and should not delude themselves into thinking they are on the side of justice? also should i do further research into the topic, of which i know something, and try to publish a book or something? or would it be dismissed as paranoia?
12 replies
Open
Bonaparte23 (695 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Frustration from blatant stupidness
Consider that you are italy in a gunboat and decide to play austian friendly (opening to piedmond, apulia and iosian) and he attacks venice in the first turn. Okay can happen, you take it back in fall and continue playing anti france and pro-austria. Now he attacks you again..
7 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
16 Oct 12 UTC
Try this
Putin, I know you hate capitalism, or think you hate it, but why don't you try it, see how it suits you?
40 replies
Open
semck83 (229 D(B))
13 Oct 12 UTC
A message from Sandgoose
Hello,

In private email related to the PNW World Cup team, Sandgoose sent the following email regarding his banning. He has given me permission to post it on the forum.
203 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Should American Presidents be allowed to invest overseas?
Listening to this lame debate, and this point is an interesting one. In an era where just about all wealthy investors invest overseas, should this be held against a president or presidential candidate?
8 replies
Open
shikari (231 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Need some mass help
Inside
3 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Ad Blocking YouTube
I didn't mind the previous way YouTube had its ads...
They were easy to skip...

But the way they have it now...the video starts, and then stops, and then you have to click a small, little cylindrical "skip ad" thing in the corner...anyone know a good ad block for it?
2 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
16 Oct 12 UTC
Gaydar Exists - And the Obama Administration Funded the Study
http://townhall.com/columnists/kevinglass/2012/10/16/moroccan_pottery_obamaphones_and_gaydar_how_the_government_wasted_your_money_this_year/page/full/
13 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
17 Oct 12 UTC
MICHIGAN INVITATIONAL
Alright....I'm universally known as an asshole. Fuck that....I'm a hell of a nice guy in real life.
Michigan Invitational...Let's sort it out....let's meet, let's play. We'll work out the background music and details as we get participants lined up.
13 replies
Open
Zmaj (215 D(B))
07 Oct 12 UTC
Color purple
Who owns the color purple? More below...
145 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1238 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Well, that was quick and unsatisfying.
EOGs for gameID=102073, wherein I, as Austria, was gang-raped as fast as I've ever seen any power disappear without CDing.
6 replies
Open
Tyran (914 D)
17 Oct 12 UTC
EOG Tuesday-2
Good game turkey
11 replies
Open
Zmaj (215 D(B))
17 Oct 12 UTC
EoG: war-25
The horror... The horror...
27 replies
Open
Gen. Lee (7588 D(B))
16 Oct 12 UTC
EOG: The Confederate Grand Ball
gameID=98869 Congratulations to cspieker.
17 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Oct 12 UTC
Now I know why Mapleleaf hates soccer
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/world-cup-qualification-concacaf/2014/honduras-canada-464183.html
16 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
17 Oct 12 UTC
Highway Animal Crossings
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/16/14486484-fastest-us-land-animal-the-pronghorn-gets-help-crossing-wyoming-highway?lite
1 reply
Open
kaner406 (356 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Curious U.S. and French Military Deployments
I get the free broadcasts from STRATFOR about stuff (I would pay for the whole deal, but quite frankly can't afford it at the moment) and I recently received this broadcast from them, and I am interested to hear what the community thinks about this and what it could potentially mean:
kaner406 (356 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC

_____________

Curious U.S. and French Military Deployments
September 28, 2012 | 2008 GMT

Summary

Stratfor has received multiple reports of U.S. and French military movements that we would like to highlight to our readers. These movements could have multiple explanations and might not be linked. But given the numerous ongoing crises specifically centered in North Africa and the Middle East, we consider these developments to be worth following.

Analysis

According to a worldwide network of aircraft spotters and trackers, at least a dozen MC-130H, HC-130N, HC-130P and AC-130U military transport planes and gunships crossed the Atlantic Ocean on Sept. 13 heading eastbound. These aircraft are typically used for a variety of special tasks, including in close cooperation with special operations forces. The last reported stop for the aircraft was Souda Bay, Crete. It is unclear whether the aircraft have left Crete, but we are working on tracking them down.

Western Military Deployments
Four F/A-18 Super Hornets from U.S. Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 314
A week and a half later, on Sept. 24, the same network of aircraft spotters noted 12 U.S. Marine Corps F/A-18 Hornet fighter jets arriving in two waves at Moron air base in Spain. It is not known where the squadron is heading, though it could be en route to Afghanistan to reinforce elements there. The Harrier squadron that suffered heavy losses in the Sept. 14 attack on Camp Bastion has already been replaced by another Harrier unit, so it is unlikely that the squadron's deployment is directly linked to that event. It is also possible that the F/A-18s are heading to the Gulf Cooperation Council region. A number of air superiority squadrons, including an F-22 Raptor squadron, have already deployed to the region. If that is the case, the squadron is intended simply as reinforcements or replacements for assets currently deployed there.

Also on Sept. 24, The New York Times published an article stating that Iraq and the United States were negotiating an agreement that could result in the return of small units of U.S. soldiers to Iraq on training missions. At the request of the Iraqi government, according to U.S. Gen. Robert Caslen, a unit of Army special operations soldiers was recently deployed to Iraq to advise on counterterrorism and to help with intelligence. It is possible that at least some of the MC-130 aircraft previously mentioned were delivering these special operations troops to Iraq.

Another report on Sept. 24, this one by the Le Figaro French-language newspaper, said some 100 French special operations troops had been deployed in the sub-Saharan region to counteract militants in northern Mali. Le Figaro also reported that maritime patrol aircraft that can be used to collect intelligence will be deployed to the region and that commandos of the French navy will reinforce the French special operations troops.

Finally, Italian journalist Guido Olimpio reported in September that U.S. unmanned aerial vehicles are currently tracking militants in Cyrenaica, the historical name for eastern Libya. He also said "reliable sources" had confirmed that U.S. special operations forces were planning to carry out intelligence operations that could be in preparation for surgical strikes in North Africa, including in Libya and in Mali.

All these deployments could be previously scheduled movements for training or part of ongoing operations. They also do not necessarily mean any one mission is imminent. The United States and France could simply be positioning military assets in a region that is rife with conflict and that may eventually require rapid military intervention or action.

Whatever the intent, these deployments, taken together, are too compelling to ignore. Given the fluid conflicts in North Africa, Syria and Afghanistan, as well as the current tensions with Iran, these movements and reports are important to highlight to our readers.
lol @ moron air base
Karatur (0 DX)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
08 Oct 12 UTC
Or stomp and smash things and carry a few HC crafts...
rokakoma (19138 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
It far more interesting that there will be 3(!) US aircraft carriers in the Gulf in 2 weeks probably, joined with 24 nations naval forces. Never, I mean NEVER before had there been a single precedent seeing 3 carriers there.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-international-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

'The multi-national naval force in the Gulf includes three US Nimitz class carrier groups, each of which has more aircraft than the entire complement of the Iranian air force."

I would be surprised if an israeli attack is imminent.
Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
I've always thought that an Israeli attack, if it ever happened, would happen in late December when the nights are longest. This is probably the rest of the world making sure they're in a position to respond in case Iran attacks anyone besides Israel after an Israeli strike. Let's hope nothing happens.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
08 Oct 12 UTC
Fucking Iran warmongering needs to just stop already. I'm not saying you guys are, I'm just saying it is playing with fucking fire.

The United States attacking *Persia*??? Jesus Christ. Welcome to 66 BC.


Anyway I think the French Mali deployments are just in case of hostage takings of Frenchies, or similar measures. I doubt there will be a military intervention in Mali until perhaps late this year at the earliest. Probably next spring though.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
08 Oct 12 UTC
Roka, Iran doesn't have the guts to attack anyone. They play with words and they send out some missiles to say they have them. They create nuclear factories to screw with our brains. It's like the North Korean missile tests: they mean NOTHING. If Iran is going to launch an attack on Israel, they are going to be annihilated, and the only way they would be able to pull it off is if they had nuclear weapons.

To expand, yes, they have nuclear plants, but no nation has been told to have sold them the correct type of uranium to ever make any weapon at all. Maybe someone did underneath, but the public at the very least doesn't know it. From our point of view, there is a very, very, very slim chance that Iran actually has a weapon it could deploy that would destroy Israel, and the moment they attack is the moment the United States blows them up. They don't have the guts to do that.
rokakoma (19138 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
@bo_sox48: I meant Israel will attack Iran, not vica-versa
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
While everybody is preoccupied with Israel, Turkey is already at war with Syria.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
08 Oct 12 UTC
Yes, Putin, any US media outlet is obsessed with Israel/Iran and trying to either defame or promote Obama's agenda. That's all it is. Nothing different than the past where 90% of the world gets forgotten because the US doesn't care about it.

Roka, I would love to see Israel attack Iran, but I am not sure I would love to see it without the Israeli troops restricting Gaza missiles and West Bank protests, as well as securing other Middle Eastern terror groups off, first. I don't believe in splitting Israel into two nations (Gaza is essentially a small Palestinian nation and it turned into a rocket base), but I also don't believe that Israel can take the beating it will take from the rest of the Middle East if it strikes first.

Now, if Iran strikes first, it would be a different story (as I alluded to prior). Thanks for the clarification.

Just a thought, but you don't have to make a nuclear bomb in order to make a nuclear weapon. You just need to scatter radioactive material over as wide a target area as possible. Decontamination is a bitch, especially if it rain, so the stuff soaks in; you'd probably have to abandon much of the target city for a very long time. And Iran has access to lots of radioactive material.

(One of the earliest stories about such a weapon, "Solution Unsatisfactory", was written by Robert Heinlein in 1940. It's well worth a read.)
Curious French Deployment? They aren't in a sprinter stance facing away from the enemy?

I kid I kid.
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Israel attacking Iran is suicidal. This will only happen if Israel can be assured of US support for it. A proposal has been on the table for a long time for a nuclear-free middle east. If the Iranian nuclear issue was such a big deal, this would be taken up. But it won't, because it would mean Israel disarming too, even though such mutual disarmament has *wide public support among Israelis*.

Israel's land army is no match for Iran, whose main force plus its reserve power is quite enormous. Israel barely has what can be called a navy, and the Straits of Hormuz can be quite easily blockaded. The only area where Israel has superiority to Iran is its air power, but that's not really going to help when you have 30,000 Lebanese Katyusha rockets heading your way.

The best lesson for this is the 1981 attack on Osirak, which simply emboldened the resolve of Iraq to expand and militarize its program.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
08 Oct 12 UTC
If the USA joins in the attack, whichever side it supports will win very quickly. I agree that Israel shouldn't attack Iran, though I'd love to see it if the situation were right (which it won't be any time soon as long as they stay in the worldwide spotlight).
"I also don't believe that Israel can take the beating it will take from the rest of the Middle East if it strikes first."

Israel - the ever-underestimated nation. Israel has, can, and will fuck up *any* country who attacks it (even if Iran's Revolutionary Guard magically hops over Iraq). Iran could have all the rockets in the world, but they don't mean shit if Israel blows up all the launching devices in a first-strike scenario. Then there's the Iron Dome, which in its first year has an 80% kill rate on incoming rockets, and will only improve over time (but yes Putin, 30,000 will overwhelm it).

Everything people have said on this thread makes sense. Its a stalemate. Neither side is going to fuck with the other one. They'll just tip-toe closer to the edge, but never cross over it.
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
This isn't 1967. Iran isn't asleep. Iran has been preparing for this confrontation. Iran has the 4th largest sea mine arsenal in the world, mines which are very difficult to detect. It has mobile anti-ship batteries which aren't going to be all blown up in any first strike scenario. The only thing that could happen is Israel blowing up Iran's radar systems on a first strike which aren't mobile, but good luck with that.

Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Putin33, why are you expecting a naval conflict between Israel and Iran at all? The Israeli end of any war would be carried out entirely by air power, perhaps commando raids to get in at certain sites. Iran and the United States may have a naval fight over a boneheaded Iranian decision to close the Straits of Hormuz (Iran can wave goodbye to global goodwill in that event), but why should Israel worry about the Iranian Navy at all?
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
"(even if Iran's Revolutionary Guard magically hops over Iraq"

Iran has military forces in Syria already. Not much of a hop. Iraq has publicly complained that Iran basically transports ammunition across it with impunity.
Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
And the Iranian Army is nearly irrelevant in this scenario too. Israel isn't gonna try and sack Tehran, and the Iranians simply cannot project conventional power as far as Israel. Sure, they could give plenty of weapons and aid to Hezbollah and Hamas and wreak all kinds of havoc, but the regular army will never march through Tel Aviv. They may level it, but they won't occupy it.
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
08 Oct 12 UTC
For what it's worth, I question Stratfor as a reliable source.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
08 Oct 12 UTC
Gold, yes, Israel will demolish anyone that dares do anything close to touching it, but it's not going to get them anything. The UN wouldn't let them secure the territory and they don't want it anyway. The only point in blowing up other countries is to piss them all off. The only nation that MIGHT (big if) be removed from the map is Iran if any conflict is to ensue, and in said situation, I expect nothing more than it be made a mandate-type state that will - like Afghanistan - be fought over for years and years and years by numerous world powers until the people and the culture are tired of it and revolt again.

I like your last phrase saying that it's a stalemate. Yeah, it is. No Middle Eastern coalition could ever defeat the US, and as long as the US backs Israel, they wouldn't ever threaten Israel. And the US backs Israel until Israel does something to change our minds, which they never will. Stalemate exactly.
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
"Putin33, why are you expecting a naval conflict between Israel and Iran at all? "

I'm not. But Israel has to consider the repercussions of an attack, which is most definitely disruptions in oil shipping along the Strait, which will be particularly painful to Europe & Japan, and have far reaching implications for Israel considering everybody else is going to have to pay for their military adventurism, at a time when the global economy is already in the doldrums.

" Israel isn't gonna try and sack Tehran, and the Iranians simply cannot project conventional power as far as Israel."

Short of regime change, what exactly is the end game for Israel and the United States? How are they going to "win" this one?
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
The regular army, no. The revolutionary guard, absolutely (though probably not Tel Aviv, Galilee instead), with Hizballah support. This has already been threatened.
Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Israel may well have its relations with every country (even the United States) ruined beyond recovery in the event of a strike. But they still don't have to care about Iran's navy. To get to Israel in any timely manner they'd have to go through either the Suez Canal or Strait of Tiran, both controlled by Egypt. All Israel has to do is remind Egypt how fragile the Aswan High Dam is and how much it doesn't want those ships near it to prevent even the Muslim Brotherhood government from letting them through.


As for "winning," I think it probably is regime change, long term. Iran can't be invaded without unacceptable casualties, so the plan is probably to encourage something like the Green Movement or some sort of coup to remove the current theocracy, and/or encourage separatism, which is a real issue in Iran. I think only 51% of the people are ethnic Persian.

An Israeli strike would be designed to knock out their ability to keep developing weapons for a great long while, and at the same time sow domestic unrest. Israel would probably aid to destroy the electric grid and do as much damage to Iran's oil capabilities as possible. That will be disastrous to the rest of the world and to the normal people in Iran, but from Israel's point of view it solves the big problem:Iran getting nuclear weapons. Netanyahu and others probably feel a big war is inevitable, and that it's better to have it before the other guys have nuclear weapons. I happen to think that's a terrible idea that will cause a lot of deaths, but there is a certain logic to it. Only if you're Israeli, though.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
08 Oct 12 UTC
The idea is that Iran shoots itself in the foot and its own government gets taken over before nukes arrive.
Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
"The regular army, no. The revolutionary guard, absolutely (though probably not Tel Aviv, Galilee instead), with Hizballah support. This has already been threatened."

Well, let's hope we don't find out who's right. Israel threatened to use it nuclear weapons in the Yom Kippur War just because things weren't going well along the Suez Canal. I shudder to think what might happen if some Iranian commandos got anywhere near the Galilee.
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
"and/or encourage separatism, which is a real issue in Iran. I think only 51% of the people are ethnic Persian."

Which is irrelevant considering the person you claim runs the place is ethnic Azeri and the regime is not remotely Persian nationalist. The Azeri population makes up the bulk of the non-Persian population and they are a well integrated minority. Iran is like Syria, its minority population is spread out. Separatism is not viable. The only way the regime could be overthrown is by arming the MEK, since there is no viable indigenous force that wants to overthrow the Islamic Republic. Again, your Green Movement doesn't want to overthrow the Islamic Republic - Karroubi is no revolutionary. Mousavi is no revolutionary. Since the Free Syria Army, despite being heavily armed in nearby Turkey couldn't do this kind of thing to Syria. It is even more dubious that such a strategy could have any chance of working in Iran.
For as much as you all want to talk about Israel's military superiority like 13 year old kids, if you stop throwing around terms like "fucked up"and "win very quickly" You would understand that an Israeli strike has the potential be very very bad militarily as well as politically. You strike Iran, Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah open up from their places on the Israeli border, from areas that Israel has shown it cannot win a war. You risk the new Egyptian government joining the fray if Israel tries to do anything about Gaza and you will have units tied down keeping the settlers safe in the west bank now that the IDF is fighting a 3 front war. You'll have rockets coming from the north the south and missiles from Iran and god knows where else. Lets not forget sanctions that will likely be imposed on Israel.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Curious French deployment?

DAMN IT FRANCE!
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
France wandered into the Channel again.
Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
What about the Balochs, Putin33? What about the Kurds? Even if most Iranian Kurds are happy with being part of Iran there are crack fighting organizations from the other three Kurdish areas which can certainly be bought and used to cause a whole lot of trouble. And it doesn't really matter if these groups or something like the Green Movement is successful outright, just that it destabilizes the regime enough that it worries about keeping control more than gaining nuclear weapons. If things are bad enough for long enough then the odds become better than some other group, as yet unknown, rises up and seizes power. It could even be a good old-fashioned communist revolution. Surely you'd be happy with that.

And any way, we're just roleplaying here. I'd like to see what your idea is for the plan Israel should pursue to win a conflict with Iran. If helping internal dissent along and outright invasion both have no chance, then what should Israel do (assuming they DO attack)?


SantaClausowitz, I don't think anyone's denying that the repercussions on Israel would be just about as bad as can be imagined. The crisis would not end quickly, and Israel would face attack deep inside it while at the same time becoming a pariah to all countries, possibly even the United States. Just imagine what the inevitable General Assembly condemnation would be like..

However, Hezbollah and Hamas cannot destroy Israel, only hurt it. Hurt it deeply, but not mortally. As for Egypt, it will never openly attack Israel. It just takes a few bombs at the Aswan High Dam to destroy Egypt and the Egyptians know it. They may accidentally on purpose let Hamas operate in the Sinai, but they will never actually fight Israel. That's not to say it wouldn't be a big war involving at least those two groups and Iran and whatever's left of Syria. And, as in every war, Israel would be fighting for its very survival. It would be a mess, but it's impossible to know what the war would really be like until it happens. And hopefully it doesn't.
Short of regime change, what exactly is the end game for Israel and the United States? How are they going to "win" this one?

Hyperinflation. Right now the real has collapsed, and with it the Iranian economy is going straight down the tubes. Its a full-blown, uncontrollable financial crisis their in right now, and every month their oil output is falling as the US presses more and more people to stop buying from Iran. This won't prevent Iran from stopping in and of itself, but if we hurt the Iranian people enough, the US will achieve its goal. Unless the Iranian government can turn it around (and the physically can't do anything about it) the people will eventually revolt and replace them. The only way sanctions will be lifted is if they give up nuclear weapons. Either scenario (revolt or capitulate) is a win for Israel and the West.

"But Israel has to consider the repercussions of an attack, which is most definitely disruptions in oil shipping along the Strait, which will be particularly painful to Europe & Japan, and have far reaching implications for Israel considering everybody else is going to have to pay for their military adventurism"

And why would Israel care about the affects its actions have on Europe and Japan? What are they doing to help out Israel? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Oh, and Putin, Qatar is distributing weapons to the FSA, not Turkey. Turkey is merely providing a safe haven and a place to pick them up (as far as I know). If you want to talk about that, PM me because I don't want to derail the thread any more than I just did.

@Santa - Again, you underestimate Israel's abilities. Everything from the past Gulf Wars and the current insurgencies is evidence that Arab armies can't stand up to Western ones. The Saudis would open up their airspace for the Israeli strike, and if not them, then the Turks would do it. It'd be a long haul, but with refueling they'd reach their targets, and have a safe US base to land at in Bahrain should they become damaged. Iraq had one of the worlds most advanced air defense systems in the world and the US tore it apart like paper. Israel's air force is second only to the United States'. Egypt won't join in because of the previous threat of the Aswan dam. Plus, Egypt's fighters? American made. If they attack Israel what won't they get? Spare parts for those planes. Within 5 years the planes would be falling apart and useless (ie. the current Iranian air force). Rockets the Iron Dome can take care of. Sanctions? Maybe Russia and China would advocate for them and get their cronies on board, but the rest of the world won't go for it.

BUT, Israel will leave the strike as a last option, because it will merely solidify support around Ahmadinejad and embolden them to keep going with the nuclear project, which is not what Israel wants.
+1 Invictus for the last sentence. Despite my apparent warmongering, I really don't want to see a war between Israel and Iran.
"However, Hezbollah and Hamas cannot destroy Israel, only hurt it. Hurt it deeply, but not mortally. "

How much and how long can Israel be "hurt" without the wound being lethal?
especially when International opinion will be squarely against them
Invictus (240 D)
08 Oct 12 UTC
Even if rockets hit Tel Aviv every day that won't drive the Jews into the sea. that's what I mean. Hezbollah doesn't have the ability to, say, assassinate the entire Israeli cabinet in a decapitation strike or whatever other doomsday scenario you can come up with. It and Hamas can make life hell for Israelis, but that alone can't destroy Israel. As for international opinion being against them, in the end America will continue to provide supplies even if the rest of the world shuns Israel and America doesn't follow it to war itself. A world where that doesn't happen is impossible to imagine.
And it is necessary for a decapitation blow to spell the beginning of the end. On top of demographic decline, political strife, water issues,nd an unstable region you are going to add destroyed infrastructure, international alienation, and unified radicalized neighbors to the mix? any major war will lead to the end
first sentence should have been a question
Invictus (240 D)
09 Oct 12 UTC
Well, you may be right about all that. I just mean that attacks from Hezbollah and Hamas in and of themselves would not be enough to destroy Israel.
Putin33 (111 D)
09 Oct 12 UTC
"What about the Balochs, Putin33? What about the Kurds?"

Balochs are a tiny minority (and Pakistan would likely go nuts if they were being armed by the US or Israel) and the Kurds, I think, are sick of rising up only to be slaughtered after they are no longer 'useful'. I mean, the Kurds in Iran are loyal to the PKK, whom NATO member Turkey loathes. Turkey is already shelling Syria over their issues with the Kurds. If Turkey is a key partner in this anti-Iranian/anti-Syrian strategy then the Kurdish issue is a non-starter.

"And it doesn't really matter if these groups or something like the Green Movement is successful outright, just that it destabilizes the regime enough that it worries about keeping control more than gaining nuclear weapons."

That's not a viable long-term strategy. I mean how long would Israel and the US expect people's skulls to get cracked to distract Iran from gaining nuclear weapons? The nuclear program is a long-term goal, short-term rebellions aren't going to do anything to distract from that. Did the prospect of armed Kurdish insurgencies in Iraq throughout the 80s do anything to preclude Iraq from accelerating its nuclear program? Not in the least.

"If helping internal dissent along and outright invasion both have no chance, then what should Israel do (assuming they DO attack)?"

Well, I already said I think it'd be a disaster for Israel. What is the least bad strategy? I think they have to do everything they can to limit the scope of this war. It cannot be a regional war. They have to hope it becomes Osirak 2.0, which it won't be because Osirak was a single easy located target over shorter distance. They have to hit their targets. They have to move swiftly against any response from Hizballah. They have to be conciliatory when the waves of condemnation come forth. They have to put their own nuclear program on the table for inspection and disarmament. They have to somehow convince the world that this was a limited action, driven by necessity due to the lack of movement on curbing Iran's nuclear program. The only way out of this is through some kind of deal. Vanquishing the enemy is not in the cards here.
Puddle (413 D)
09 Oct 12 UTC
Santa I think you grossly underestimate the Israelis, sort of extinction they, as a whole aren't going anywhere. The problems they are having defeating the insurgents has largely to do with a lack of will to do what is necessary, which is total war. The nightmare scenario of a three front war at home and an air war with Iran abroad would likely remove their qualms about a total war. I think wed see something along the lines of the most recent Lebanese invasion, no distinction between civilian and military targets. And while it may engender longterm resistance, it will short term send the insurgents running.

Israel is quite possible the most ruthless, dangerous and effective fighting force in the world, and when it comes to open war they have shown time and again that they not only will win, but do whatever is necessary to do so.
yes and completely isolate a state with limited water supplies, no oil and very reliant on international trade. Brilliant.
Santa - you don't get it. Put yourself in their position. If its a case of becoming a pariah vs. get wiped off the map, its an easy choice. Putin actually has the best handle on the Israelis, judging from his last comment.
Putin33 (111 D)
09 Oct 12 UTC
I think people grossly overestimate Israel. Aside from its air force, it's not really all that powerful of a military. The 2006 war in Lebanon's militias proved they can be defeated. In 1973 Egypt bloodied their nose quite a bit. They are far from the most effective military in the world. Pakistan has more combat aircraft than Israel.

All wars stem from disputes about relative power, and most aggressors in a conflict overestimate their own capabilities.

JECE (1248 D)
09 Oct 12 UTC
kaner406: I wasn't familiar with STRATFOR before you posted this on the forum. I looked up their website and was confronted with some of the dumbest informational videos I have seen in my life: 'Nepal's sovereignty is threatened by India and China', ramblings about the EU and the Eurozone (with a young lady 'VP' with an incredibly annoying accent) and talk of mobs attacking embassies that morphed into an advertisement for smoke hoods. What value do you see in dumbed-down, misleading 'intel' with virtually no informational value? And the article you posted gives random 'troops movements' that are lopped into one article for no reason: what do French military maneuvers in Sub-Saharan Africa (which happen all the time) have to do with the possibility of U. S. troops returning to Iraq?
"Santa - you don't get it. Put yourself in their position. If its a case of becoming a pariah vs. get wiped off the map, its an easy choice. Putin actually has the best handle on the Israelis, judging from his last comment."

No it is not. It is between facing hard truths or getting whoped off the map as a pariah state. In order to not face those hard truths, the hardliners create the illusion that Israel is on the verge of being "whiped off the map" when that is not the case. Scare mongering bullshit is trucked out so Fuckhead settlers can keep their land and the orthodox can kep their power.

You don't get it, as usually is the case. All that comes from you is the normal cliches strung into arguments as usual.
kaner406 (356 D)
10 Oct 12 UTC
@JECE: I never said that this was gospel; I only asked what people thought/interpreted from their broadcast. I find Stratfor to be quite focused on Geopolitical situations around the globe, but at the same time I don't always agree with their conclusions. However what it does is raise is questions as to how we choose to perceive the global situation at the moment. I've copied and pasted their most recent geopolitical broadcast below (and yes I am interested in how people choose to interpret this!):

The Emerging Doctrine of the United States
By George Friedman

Over the past weekend, rumors began to emerge that the Syrian
opposition would allow elements of the al Assad regime to remain in
Syria and participate in the new government. Rumors have become
Syria's prime export, and as such they should not be taken too
seriously. Nevertheless, what is happening in Syria is significant for
a new foreign doctrine emerging in the United States -- a doctrine in
which the United States does not take primary responsibility for
events, but which allows regional crises to play out until a new
regional balance is reached. Whether a good or bad policy -- and that
is partly what the U.S. presidential race is about -- it is real, and
it flows from lessons learned.

Threats against the United States are many and complex, but
Washington's main priority is ensuring that none of those threats
challenge its fundamental interests. Somewhat simplistically, this
boils down to mitigating threats against U.S. control of the seas by
preventing the emergence of a Eurasian power able to marshal resources
toward that end. It also includes preventing the development of a
substantial intercontinental nuclear capability that could threaten
the United States if a country is undeterred by U.S. military power
for whatever reason. There are obviously other interests, but
certainly these interests are fundamental.

Therefore, U.S. interest in what is happening in the Western Pacific
is understandable. But even there, the United States is, at least for
now, allowing regional forces to engage each other in a struggle that
has not yet affected the area's balance of power. U.S. allies and
proxies, including the Philippines, Vietnam and Japan, have been
playing chess in the region's seas without a direct imposition of U.S.
naval power -- even though such a prospect appears possible.

Lessons Learned

The roots of this policy lie in Iraq. Iran and Iraq are historical
rivals; they fought an extended war in the 1980s with massive
casualties. A balance of power existed between the two that neither
was comfortable with but that neither could overcome. They contained
each other with minimal external involvement.

The U.S. intervention in Iraq had many causes but one overwhelming
consequence: In destroying Saddam Hussein's regime, a regime that was
at least as monstrous as Moammar Gadhafi's or Bashar al Assad's, the
United States destroyed the regional balance of power with Iran. The
United States also miscalculated the consequences of the invasion and
faced substantial resistance. When the United States calculated that
withdrawal was the most prudent course -- a decision made during the
Bush administration and continued by the Obama administration -- Iran
consequently gained power and a greater sense of security. Perhaps
such outcomes should have been expected, but since a forced withdrawal
was unexpected, the consequences didn't clearly follow and warnings
went unheeded.

If Iraq was the major and critical lesson on the consequences of
intervention, Libya was the smaller and less significant lesson that
drove it home. The United States did not want to get involved in
Libya. Following the logic of the new policy, Libya did not represent
a threat to U.S. interests. It was the Europeans, particularly the
French, who argued that the human rights threats posed by the Gadhafi
regime had to be countered and that those threats could quickly and
efficiently be countered from the air. Initially, the U.S. position
was that France and its allies were free to involve themselves, but
the United States did not wish to intervene.

This rapidly shifted as the Europeans mounted an air campaign. They
found that the Gadhafi regime did not collapse merely because French
aircraft entered Libyan airspace. They also found that the campaign
was going to be longer and more difficult than they anticipated. At
this point committed to maintaining its coalition with the Europeans,
the United States found itself in the position of either breaking with
its coalition or participating in the air campaign. It chose the
latter, seeing the commitment as minimal and supporting the alliance
as a prior consideration.

Libya and Iraq taught us two lessons. The first was that campaigns
designed to topple brutal dictators do not necessarily yield better
regimes. Instead of the brutality of tyrants, the brutality of chaos
and smaller tyrants emerged. The second lesson, well learned in Iraq,
is that the world does not necessarily admire interventions for the
sake of human rights. The United States also learned that the world's
position can shift with startling rapidity from demanding U.S. action
to condemning U.S. action. Moreover, Washington discovered that
intervention can unleash virulently anti-American forces that will
kill U.S. diplomats. Once the United States enters the campaign,
however reluctantly and in however marginal a role, it will be the
United States that will be held accountable by much of the world --
certainly by the inhabitants of the country experiencing the
intervention. As in Iraq, on a vastly smaller scale, intervention
carries with it unexpected consequences.

These lessons have informed U.S. policy toward Syria, which affects
only some U.S. interests. However, any U.S. intervention in Syria
would constitute both an effort and a risk disproportionate to those
interests. Particularly after Libya, the French and other Europeans
realized that their own ability to intervene in Syria was insufficient
without the Americans, so they declined to intervene. Of course, this
predated the killing of U.S. diplomats in Benghazi, Libya, but it did
not predate the fact that the intervention in Libya surprised planners
by its length and by the difficulty of creating a successor regime
less brutal than the one it replaced. The United States was not
prepared to intervene with conventional military force.

That is not to say the United States did not have an interest in
Syria. Specifically, Washington did not want Syria to become an
Iranian puppet that would allow Tehran's influence to stretch through
Iraq to the Mediterranean. The United States had been content with the
Syrian regime while it was simply a partner of Iran rather than Iran's
subordinate. However, the United States foresaw Syria as a subordinate
of Iran if the al Assad regime survived. The United States wanted Iran
blocked, and that meant the displacement of the al Assad regime. It
did not mean Washington wanted to intervene militarily, except
possibly through aid and training potentially delivered by U.S.
special operations forces -- a lighter intervention than others
advocated.

Essential Interests

The U.S. solution is instructive of the emerging doctrine. First, the
United States accepted that al Assad, like Saddam Hussein and Gadhafi,
was a tyrant. But it did not accept the idea that al Assad's fall
would create a morally superior regime. In any event, it expected the
internal forces in Syria to deal with al Assad and was prepared to
allow this to play out. Second, the United States expected regional
powers to address the Syrian question if they wished. This meant
primarily Turkey and to a lesser degree Saudi Arabia. From the
American point of view, the Turks and Saudis had an even greater
interest in circumscribing an Iranian sphere of influence, and they
had far greater levers to determine the outcome in Syria. Israel is,
of course, a regional power, but it was in no position to intervene:
The Israelis lacked the power to impose a solution, they could not
occupy Syria, and Israeli support for any Syrian faction would
delegitimize that faction immediately. Any intervention would have to
be regional and driven by each participant's national interests.

The Turks realized that their own national interest, while certainly
affected by Syria, did not require a major military intervention,
which would have been difficult to execute and which would have had an
unknown outcome. The Saudis and Qataris, never prepared to intervene
directly, did what they could covertly, using money, arms and
religiously motivated fighters to influence events. But no country was
prepared to risk too much to shape events in Syria. They were prepared
to use indirect power rather than conventional military force. As a
result, the conflict remains unresolved.

This has forced both the Syrian regime and the rebels to recognize the
unlikelihood of outright military victory. Iran's support for the
regime and the various sources of support for the Syrian opposition
have proved indecisive. Rumors of political compromise are emerging
accordingly.

We see this doctrine at work in Iran as well. Tehran is developing
nuclear weapons, which may threaten Israel. At the same time, the
United States is not prepared to engage in a war with Iran, nor is it
prepared to underwrite the Israeli attack with added military support.
It is using an inefficient means of pressure -- sanctions -- which
appears to have had some effect with the rapid depreciation of the
Iranian currency. But the United States is not looking to resolve the
Iranian issue, nor is it prepared to take primary responsibility for
it unless Iran becomes a threat to fundamental U.S. interests. It is
content to let events unfold and act only when there is no other
choice.

Under the emerging doctrine, the absence of an overwhelming American
interest means that the fate of a country like Syria is in the hands
of the Syrian people or neighboring countries. The United States is
unwilling to take on the cost and calumny of trying to solve the
problem. It is less a form of isolationism than a recognition of the
limits of power and interest. Not everything that happens in the world
requires or justifies American intervention.

If maintained, this doctrine will force the world to reconsider many
things. On a recent trip in Europe and the Caucasus, I was constantly
asked what the United States would do on various issues. I responded
by saying it would do remarkably little and that it was up to them to
act. This caused interesting consternation. Many who condemn U.S.
hegemony also seem to demand it. There is a shift under way that they
have not yet noticed -- except for an absence that they regard as an
American failure. My attempt to explain it as the new normal did not
always work.

Given that there is a U.S. presidential election under way, this
doctrine, which has quietly emerged under Obama, appears to conflict
with the views of Mitt Romney, a point I made in a previous article.
My core argument on foreign policy is that reality, not presidents or
policy papers, makes foreign policy. The United States has entered a
period in which it must move from military domination to more subtle
manipulation, and more important, allow events to take their course.
This is a maturation of U.S. foreign policy, not a degradation. Most
important, it is happening out of impersonal forces that will shape
whoever wins the U.S. presidential election and whatever he might
want. Whether he wishes to increase U.S. assertiveness out of national
interest, or to protect human rights, the United States is changing
the model by which it operates. Overextended, it is redesigning its
operating system to focus on the essentials and accept that much of
the world, unessential to the United States, will be free to evolve as
it will.

This does not mean that the United States will disengage from world
affairs. It controls the world's oceans and generates almost a quarter
of the world's gross domestic product. While disengagement is
impossible, controlled engagement, based on a realistic understanding
of the national interest, is possible.

This will upset the international system, especially U.S. allies. It
will also create stress in the United States both from the political
left, which wants a humanitarian foreign policy, and the political
right, which defines the national interest broadly. But the
constraints of the past decade weigh heavily on the United States and
therefore will change the way the world works.

The important point is that no one decided this new doctrine. It is
emerging from the reality the United States faces. That is how
powerful doctrines emerge. They manifest themselves first and are
announced when everyone realizes that that is how things work.
The answer to the OP's post is that the American troops were heading to Jordan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49354128/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/?ocid=msnhp#.UHVcj1F-7SA

@kaner - thanks for the Friedman article. It was very interesting.

@Santa - I'm hurt. I don't think I string together cliches as a form of argument. But the fact of the matter is that much of what you say is wrong. The average Israeli hates the Orthodox Jews living there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/09/us-israel-politics-ultraorthodox-idUSBRE8680LK20120709

As for the scaremongering bullshit, here's one Iranian "holiday"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Day#2012_Quds_Day

So yes, Israel isn't on the verge of extermination, but do millions of their neighbors want them dead? Of course. And a quick google search shows that Israel has been "becoming a pariah state" for the past 10 years. They're not one now, and I don't think they will be one any time soon.

Just to clarify, I'm being more pro-Israeli in this post than I actually am, because that's just the anti-Iranian in me coming out. Israel does need to compromise a bit more with the Palestinians, and reign in the ultra-Orthodox population, and most of all apologize to Turkey for the attack on the flotilla in 2010.
JECE (1248 D)
16 Oct 12 UTC
kaner406: Is there a video version of that broadcast?


50 replies
Dharmaton (2398 D)
14 Oct 12 UTC
StarFleet Command - II (demo) - SFC-II
An ol' style game: (run the last of the 'courses')
* based on a great table-top game, star Fleet Battles.
http://download.cnet.com/Starfleet-Command-Volume-II-Empires-at-War-demo/3000-2119_4-10246064.html
5 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
16 Oct 12 UTC
High Taxes = Economic DISASTER in France
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9610717/French-business-erupts-in-fury-against-disastrous-Francois-Hollande.html

Read and weep all you commie libs out there! :P lol
10 replies
Open
butterhead (90 D)
15 Oct 12 UTC
The NFL through week 6
at the beginning of the NFL season there was an interesting discussion on which teams everybody thought would succeed this year... Well, ~1/3rd of the way through the season, what's changed? teams projected to suck are killing it, those supposed to do good are dropping like flies... lets discuss?
21 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Oct 12 UTC
And the Nobel Prize for Peace Goes To...the European Union?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/12/us-nobel-peace-idUSBRE89A1N820121012 Really...the whole EU? I didn't know an entire alliance of member states could win the award...but...OK...lol...those in Europe, does the EU deserve it? (Though I guess if Obama can get the award for, well, basically just not being President Bush, anything's fair game, lol. Still...nearly a whole continent winning the award?) :)
154 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
14 Oct 12 UTC
Freefalling from the edge of space!
http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/

His capsule's at 64,000 feet already.
54 replies
Open
akilies (861 D)
13 Oct 12 UTC
Looking for people to beat me in an anon gunboat :)
I feel the need to try another gunboat. I think I've been in two total and I've enjoyed the fact that I dont have to talk with you people ;)
32 replies
Open
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