bo "I'm f'in silenced" sox48 says:

They are all celebrating, thinking that I can't talk, and making low pot games to rub it in my face, at which point I join and solo them all.

There was 10(!) 7000 + pot game this year in gunboats (two created by me only), two more above 4000 (both created by me though)

So there's a very strong contrast between the two type of games or just those ones who have points are not creating big games?

Fortress "I'm f'in silenced too" Door says:

I think full pressers might not be creating high pot games is that:

1. There are a lot fewer of them. Most of the people on the top 100 (at least the top 10, probably more scattered around there) are gunboaters. and some of those full pressers are no longer here (MM, zultar, etc)

2. I may just may be a bit too stressful for a full presser. I wouldn't join a 200 pot full press game, because I would constantly be worrying about my decisions. This exists in gunboat, but is amplified in full press, where so much more can go wrong. Also, gunboat takes a lot less time, while in full press, you can need to send a lot of press if you want to survive.

just my 2 cents

You can see from this thread what is the problem with "full press" players here. Man would think they like to talk about things if they are full press players...

I've always gotten the impression that gunboaters, with more games to play, generally had more points to spend. How much of it does that explain?

Full Press is a bastardization of the original intent of the game.

And by that I mean I suck at it.

Surely you can play more games, but many top 10 Hall of Fame members, who play full press only, made their points in not that much games. 100-200 (the same as me for. eg.)

Also this is a zero sum game, so it doesn't really matter how much you play, the points available on the site remain the same, so does the average. The flow of points is slower among fullpressers (from the individual player's point of view) but it's the same.

7 gunboaters can play 10 games in the same time while fullpressers play only one, but their total point will be the same after the games. The distribution will have smaller spread though, of course.

Statistically you survive (draw oor win) 50% of your games, so risking 1/7th or more of your points is really not a big risk to take. And there are way too many players who could risk few hundred points.

Also, among gunboaters it was easy to find people to join 1000-2000 bet size games, even though they had about 3-4-5000 only. I joined my first 7000 pot size game with having only 2300 all together. So, what I see is gunboaters are willing to take bigger risks I think. But I don't know why.

Full Pressers, or as I like to call us "Diplomacy players", often see points as a distraction from the game. Some of us find it useful to use points as a tool to keep noobs out of a game, but that doesn't require bets much larger than 100. The same perversion that makes people think a game of diplomacy is improved by taking away the most enjoyable element apparently leads players to think that the hoarding of points is a worthwhile achievement. Full pressers are largely immune to this.

In my experience, full press games for uncomfortably large pots are inevitably less fun. No one is willing to take any risks, a Western Triple forms, the east organizes to stop it, then the game slowly gets the air sucked out of it and it is a three way E/F/T draw, or something similar to that.

For me, people already take the game too seriously, and high pot games just magnify that. Also, for whatever reason I seem to be really bad at them. I'm something like 0 for 4 in high pot games, hence my relatively low point count.

"Also this is a zero sum game, so it doesn't really matter how much you play, the points available on the site remain the same, so does the average. "

Is this true? Everyone who joins or bottoms out gets 100. Surely more points are added when people join than are lost through retirement/docking.

@Octavious: your point makes sense, though I have to disagree with you at one point. I'm currently playing 3 full press game, and I played one for 2800 pot recently. Points do matter! People in higher pot games play better, the way of talking, the understanding of strategy, the longer term perspectives do appear more as pots go higher. Not because you are more careful, but because you are more qualified.

Statistically, you have more points because you're a better player. And beleive me, there's no line between noobs/not noobs ate 100 bet size. If you play a top10 GR game it will be completely different, than if you play a top300GR (which still can be easily 100 bet)

Surely the best would be to play by GR, but for now we only have points, and you have to admit, there's a correlaton between GR and points here. Meaning the bigger the pot size is, the bigger the likelihood the average GR ov the players is.

Also, don't forget that many players aren't native speakers of English. It's only natural they'd prefer the mute version.

@ckroberts: no, sitewide, there's points inflation. What I meant, there's no difference between average gunboater points and average full presser points. If there were two different websites, one you can play only gunboat, the other you can play only FP, and the same people were joining both, then points distribution were the same on both sites after the same amount of game.

Conclusion: just because you play gunboats you don't have more points.

I think, in general, a full press game is more of a time commitment. A gunboat takes a few minutes a day, tops. A player can accumulate points more quickly by playing gunboats than by playing several drawn out full press games. I think what you're seeing is the natural distribution of full press games within the spectrum of all created games on this site based on effort required to participate.

@Zmaj, thanks it makes sense actually.
@uclabb, just because they are not willing to take big risks it doesn't mean the game is worse. This is exactly what I'm saying, the bigger the pot the different the dynamics is (the same at gunboats) but I actually enjoy it, because for me, high pot games are flowing in the way I like. Those are what I understand hence I'm good at them.

I think everyone has to find the level he feels comfortable himself, and what I'm missing here is there are really that few people who enjoy that level at fullpress?

@2WL, yes, the distribution counts, for sure, but what is the caveat is, the game distribution (8 out of 10 high pot is gunboat) does not equal the hall of fame distribution (half of top 10 is fullpresser, MM, Babak, BESP, Reit, ...)

So what I'm saying there are players way enough to play higher pot full press games.

I'm not convinced about how good the correlation between GR and points actually is. The games from which I've gathered most of my GR have predominantly been 5pt affairs from various tournaments. The games from which most of my points have come from have been far lower in terms of GR. I suspect this is less true of gunboat players.

See in gunboat games the higher the pot the better the player but that's not true for regular press. In regular press it's the higher the ghostrating the better the player. For me at least if I want a good game I'm going to go on the forum, take a week or 2 to organize it, and make sure I get some really good competition because I'll be playing this game for weeks. In those games people want to win and the ghosting and respect earned from a good game are the main rewards. When you add in high points a lot of us start playing cautiously because we want to make sure we have enough points to get into other games. Takes us longer to earn points back if we lose everything since the games take so much longer.

@rokakoma, the higher ranked full press players generally don't play games with noobs at all, they have to earn the right to play with MadMarx and the like. Whereas you and the other top gunboaters do simply because there are less gunboaters so you can't be as selective. The effect of that is the top gunboaters taking a lot more of the regenerated 100 then full press players.

@jmo, @octavius

probably you guys are right, and I'm starting to understand it. I made a qucik summary, the
WTA, Classic Map, Full Press, Non-Live '12 Sept GR rating top 25 players:

have 100722 altogether, giving an average of 4028 with the average of 104 games / player

The top 25 September gunboaters have 161504 with the average of 6460 with 284 games/player.

Clearly gunboaters play more, but gain less in a game. So basically we have more points because we played more, not because we played higher bets.

But there are only 3 players under 1000 bet in top25GR (only 1 at gunboaters), meaning there could be a lot more 1000-2000 pot size games easily without risking to much.

And jmo, I have to disagree you on 1 thing though. Points and risk and tense is what makes games interesting. Can you imagine a chess competition among top10 chess players without tense? They have to compete for the price, for their living, for money, for they next invitation, and so on. Tense has to be part of the game, otherwise you don't take the game that serious in my view. And risking your points, so you might not be able to join the next one gives that tense.

I don't think players, who don't take risks are good at all. It's like playing poker without money. The most stupidest thing ever probably.

It's possible to play gunboats here and be selective. Not if you're averaging 2 to 3 games a day since joining, like a few of the live gunboaters, but with a little patience and initiative it's certainly possible.

jmo also brings up an important point- I think a lot of full-pressers play only (or at least very close to only) invitational/tournament games. I know I do. So points aren't needed as a filter.

I agree with you there rok, I personally play more for the Ghostrating risk, it's just that I'm risking an equal amount every game, which is why I normally take care to only play with other players with high ghost ratings. But I do agree, you need to have something on the line for people to play well, it's just that GR seems to be more important to full press and points for gunboaters.

uclabb: okay, I'm getting that now, and I really understand it. My concern is, if you have nothing to lose, then you play differently. Other words, if you have something to lose, you play differently and you guys should try it.

If this was a real war, then everyone would fight for their life, not for GR point, which if you lose nothing happens. Until you don't feel some kind of pressure you must survive, otherwise you have to work months for be able to join such a game again, until that moment you are not under pressure to survive.

@jmo: okay, I think I understand now, for me GR really doesn't mean to much. I'm playing full press recently, to improve my 80+ rating in classic category, but I feel zero pressure to take any of them seriously. If I lose, I lose, nothing happens. But I remember my first (and second) 7k pot game, I literally couldn't sleep for days, not to lose points which I earned in half a year.

1) GBers play far more games. It's not completely zero sum. The good players play hundreds of games against weaker competition, taking thei points to use in those giant 7k games.

2) I've never come across a diplomacy player who's turned down a high GR game because the pot was too small. Lately, I've been playing some fairly talented diplomats and the games have always been low pot.

tldr; Gunboaters enjoy the monotony of point farming. Diplomacy players don't care for that shit.

@roka- I promise you that I care a lot more about my GR than any amount of points. I wouldnt even consider trading 25 GR points for 1000 .

In fact, I am getting to the point where I care too much. I am wary of joining live games these days because I know I will lose GR no matter what unless I win.

Rokamoka - that is why I was so frustrated in my last FP game with you. There were a ton of great players that were fully invested in the game. You were the only one with a who-gives-a-fuck attitude and it did put a bit of a damper on the game.

@rokakoma, that was about the same for me during my first top 20 Ghost rating invitational with MM and Babak. Took me about a year and a half after I came back from my break to make the top 25 GR, and I have no desire to lose that anytime soon.

As a dedicated gunboater who plays a ton of live games...

When you play full press, every game is completely different. There's no way you could use the same strategy ever again, since every proposal of yours will get a different answer.

But gunboats are much more similar to chess. And how do you get better at chess? You play thousands of games, until the mechanics of openings, mid-games and end-games start seeping into your subconscious. The more you play, the better reflexes you have.

This is the reason why gunboaters play more. They need to perfect their game and it's the only way. On the other hand, full pressers need the skill of persuasion. This skill can be improved anywhere, not just by playing gunboats.

Hmmm... You already knew all this, didn't you? Never mind.

Okay guys, I get it, for you GR is what counts. I try to accept and respect that from now on.
Yonni, it was my first FP game after half a year I think, and I got really upset about jmeyer's way of talking. In the current 3 games I play I hardly play the same way. I'm sorry about that, it was a bad situation. Also I was playing the 14k pot game parallel and I couldn't think anything else than that game.

I was so engaged in that game, I really didn't give a shit about our game, but not because it was FP or anything, but because even when I was writing to you guys I was thinking about my other game. It was an accident I was winning in the other one at the very same time.

ZMaj, you only play gunboat because you suck at regular Diplomacy.

It's the other way round, stupid. I suck at regular Diplomacy because I only play gunboat. Duh.

I think I'm confusing correlation with causation. You suck at everything.

Lol what a fucking moron. Go hump Bob Genghiskhan, will you? I feel dirty just talking to you.

Don't drag Bob Genghiskhan into this!

I used to play for GR. I never cared about points because they are an artificial system that can be played by poont farming. Bit now I strictly.play for the pleasure and only play the folks who I think will challenge me and bring out the best (and the worst) in me.

Oh and I am a fullpresser only nowadays and the idea that high risk males the game better is bull. The original boardgame has no points and the game isn't a simulation of war. It just happens to be played on a map representing turn off the 19th century Europe.

Part of the reason has to be that a lot of the best full press players arent on the site anymore.

I think part of it is because high quality/high pot full press games are very demanding in terms of time, so players tend to only play one at a time. I know that is what I generally do.

Also, they get nasty from what I've seen so its likely turned many people off.

Tom, even low pot "high quality" gets nasty.