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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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krellin (80 DX)
03 Oct 12 UTC
Paris Jackson (Daughter of Micheal)
Tries a new look??? That's the headline...

http://music.yahoo.com/blogs/stop-the-presses/paris-jackson-gone-miley-us-195925208.html
5 replies
Open
largeham (149 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
The Koniggratz Freakout
I was reading this the other day (http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/strategy/articles/koniggratz.htm), I can't really understand why anyone would do that. Edi Birsan doesn't go much into why one would go with such a move, so I'm wondering if people have seen or tried it.
19 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
01 Oct 12 UTC
Return
Hello everyone, I've been asked to return to help out with some modding so you may see a bit more of me. I hope everyone's well.
12 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Zombie Fish and other goodness...
Dead fish think...and have opinions about you!

http://boingboing.net/2012/10/02/what-a-dead-fish-can-teach-you.html#more-184176
5 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
27 Sep 12 UTC
Which country do you think sets a good example of a well-governed nation?
I'm curious what you guys think..
97 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
22 Sep 12 UTC
The Founders Are Rolling In Their Graves...At What Point Did We Forget...
...that we are NOT a Christian Nation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQrD1ty-yzs&feature=g-vrec All that work to establish what was one of the first great secular republics in history, with a secular Constitution, and yet the Right would continue to have us believe that this is a Christian Nation. How, in the face of the violence in OTHER nations claiming alignment with one particular faith lately, can anyone even think our being a Christian Nation is a GOOD thing?
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
"The assertion that the Jacob/Esau story is a parable also needs to be supported. It is certainly unlike most/all other Biblical stories known as parables. Perhaps "folktale" would be more appropriate if one rejects the story's historicity, and such rejection would also require support. There aren't even many elements of the supernatural for a naturalist to reject a priori."

OK, yes, that is a better term, I think, thank you, FlemGem.

A folktale...I was going with parable because I think it also is designed to give a good/bad lesson, but i suppose you can have that with a folktale as well, so yes, perhaps that's a better term.

"The text expects you to consider him a real person, and infer his characteristics from his actions. Like every text."

But he has so few actions and so little to say that you can justifiably only infer very little or, to put it better, perhaps, the amount of things you may infer is severely limited, and so his depth is limited.

You simply cannot turn a flat character textually into a round one on inference alone...

NOW, if you're ADAPTING the story, that's different; I think I've said it before, but I think that the adaptations of the Exodus story are better than the written thing because they do just that, they adapt and expand and thus infer more material into the characters, and develop the Pharaoh into a more complex villain (and hero/villain conflicts can only be better when the villain is complex as well as the hero, and I'd certainly agree Moses is a complex hero, I have no disagreement there) and so on...

But that's adapting the text to tell the story you want to see, NOT inferring what you want to see into the original text ITSELF, that strikes me as being--for lack of a better word--unfaithful and not true to the text.

Hamlet's a bit too complex already for this too work (he's one of the most well-developed characters in English literature, after all, so you can and people have read hundreds of different things in with textual support for hundreds of years), so to use another case to illustrate my point here...

Take, say, Marcellus, aka, the guy who sees the Ghost of Hamlet's Father first and gets to be played by Jack Lemon in the star-studded 4-hour Branagh version. :)

Marcellus is a flat character.
He has very few lines.
He has very few actions.
He is really mainly just a plot device to see the Ghost and get things going for Hamlet.

That's about it.
I couldn't infer, justifiably, much else into his character...
I couldn't say whether he was a wrathful or kindhearted person...
Gay or straight...
What his hopes and dreams might have been...

There's only so much you can justifiably read into his character.
In terms of lines, I THINK--I may be a bit off, not putting them side to side, but I think--Marcellus is close to (definitely in the ballpark of) the amount of lines Esau gets.
What's more, "Hamlet," for as long as it is, being WAY shorter than the Bible, Marcellus' presence actually has a higher ratio of lines in the overall story than does Esau.

We can't argue that he's just a porter and does nothing important, he does--he sees the Ghost after all...and if it had just been Hamlet seeing the Ghost, we might have then just decided that it was all in his head, since he can see it but not his mother in Act III Scene 4, but as Marcellus sees it before Hamlet's even on the scene, we have a legitimate question as to whether or not it's real.

So he has a function, just like Esau has a basic story function...

But both end there, really, they' ONLY have basic story functions and are only flat characters.

There is nothing in Marcellus' lines that you could use to construe poetically to give his character extra meaning; sometimes of course the Bible and Shakespeare WILL have a minor character you can read a lot more into--sticking with Hamlet, the role of the Gravedigger comes to mind--than you might think for the role, but THAT is because of the poetic quality of their lines...

The Gravedigger and some minor Biblical characters SAY THINGS that are deep or puzzling or profound or raise an important point--ie, the Gravedigger's talking about the nature of death and the logic and morality of suicide vs. accidental deaths--and so they have more depth than they may seem to have at first with their limited amount of lines...

But this is not the case for Marcellus, nor may we say it is the case for Esau.

Esau bemoans his situation, but that's not especially "deep;" it may be moving, if you feel he was wronged (and he WAS roundly screwed) but it's not deep or profound or unique or anything of that nature.
None of his lines are especially poetic, and we know poetic from non-poetic lines in the Bible, the Book of Job and the Psalms are famously some more poetic lines and works...here it is neither structurally nor tonally poetic.
There is little DEPTH to what Esau says or does or feels, its all one-dimensional.
By contrast, Marcellus is the same, one-dimensional in what he says/does/feels...
But the Gravedigger, while one-dimensional in what he does and maybe even what he feels, is not at all one-dimensional in what he SAYS, he's giving multi-layered riddles and thinking them over and working his way through these ideas with his friend and then later with Hamlet.

As such, it's FAIR to infer a bit more character into the Gravedigger, the content of his lines warrants it.
But it's not really fair to do so with Marcellus or Esau, with one exception, I'd say--

If you are an ACTOR, then yes, you DO have to infer something about their background and make up a backstory and everything to play this little part effectively, that's an old acting technique, and it makes sense, you can't try to play even a small character with conviction without doing so...

But that's just for the actor's personal use, that's not saying those backgrounds are inferred by the text itself, or supported by it, that's closer to adaptation and just making up your OWN backstory to suit your own vision.

"But, without any support whatsoever, you asserted that the story of Jacob and Esau is "flat because the story is essentially part-parable, and, well, parables generally DO feature flat characters."

1. I gave support BESIDES likening it to a parable, Mujus...the lack of lines, the limited content of the lines, the limited structure of the lines, the lack of poetic structure or content in those lines, the ratio issue I mentioned, etc. so I gave a LOT of other support besides that
2. Like I said above, I think FlemGem had a better term for it with folktale; folktale or parable, though, both generally lack depth...after all, when I think of a folktale, I think of, say, Paul Bunyan, and that's not exactly a story with tons of depth.
fulhamish (4134 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
From my perspective, with his Biblical-Shakespearean comparison, Obi is comparing apples with oranges.
Most of the people on the, for want of a better term, theistic side of the debate have stated that they are not Biblical literalists. Rather they view the text as divinely inspired. That is certainly my take on the contextualised text in the light of the developing account of sibling rivalry from Cain and Able, through Isaac and Ishmael and Jacob and Esau to Joseph and his brothers.
The talking past one another which we seem to do with so much regularity is due to the fact that some, perhaps including Obi, search for a complete, watertight and satisfying explanation in the text - along the lines of ''Man looking for God''. Maybe others, including myself, view things from the opposite perspective and regard things more as a matter of ''God looking for Man''. Hence, to the latter group, Obi's uninteresting, one-dimensional and, on occasion, viscous story becomes a matter of great interest, wrestling and hopefully, in the end, inspiration/enlightenment.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Well, we were treating the story as a work of literature.

Hence the Shakespeare comparison.

Surely there are no two works in English of unrivaled influence than the KJ Bible and Shakespeare?

In that respect, at least, the two ARE equal.



I'm not asking them to take it as a Biblical literalist (since we're not doing the theology of it right now) but rather to evaluate what they infer or suppose of the text by evaluating the text itself--

They claim (correct me if I'm wrong( that the text CAN support their literary interpretations of the text...

I claim that it cannot, that neither the structure nor the content ITSELF allows for such interpretation.

NOW, if you want to argue that you may read in another meaning due to these works being RELIGIOUS in nature, that's another story...but that's also my point--

I think a lot of these works in the Bible are NOT great literature on the basis of the structure and content alone, and that often times--the Jacob//Esau story being an example of this--these elements are actually rather weak and not at all deserving of being mentioned as a "Great Work"...

But rather that these works are considered "Great Works" because the larger poetic sensibility and nature of the works are read INTO them via an external reader response and an overriding theological mandate.

That is, the works are good not necessarily on their own, but rather, in the context of a religious reading of the text, they take on a new meaning and have much MORE meaning and power at that, but that this is therefore infused into the text via a reader's response and from a theology...

And that separated from that theology--or, to be more precise, to treat the work STRICTLY as a work of literature and not take the theological "majesty" of a reader's response into question, in JUST examining the text as constructed--a story such as this is one-dimensional, lacking in depth, and not a great work.

Again, put simply:

A story like Hamlet has the structure and content to warrant a variety of interpretations, and thus were are not in the wrong by saying its "rich" or "complex" or "deep."
This story does not, for the textual and structural reasons an a analysis I've given in previous pages on this now-20 page discussion.

IF, however, someone wishes to say (as I suspect might be the case here) "That's not fair, Obi, "Hamlet" is a long play devoted to one story"--well, not really, there are A LOT of stories going on within the main story of "Hamlet," but we'll say one story for simplicity's sake--"whereas this is just a short story and part of a larger collection, so OF COURSE Esau won't be as complex as Hamlet, and the story won't be as complex as that play, that's an unfair comparison, they're of completely different magnitudes."

To which I'd say:

1. THAT'S MY POINT, that this story and a great many other heralded stories in the Bible do not warrant their heightened status on their own merits of structure and content, they simply don't measure up to other great works in Western Literature, their size limits them, the dogmatic positions that are often taken limit them further, the limited amount of space many characters get limits it further, and finally, the actual content, as a result of the previous three, are also limited and--excepting the cases I noted such as the Out of Egypt story, for its scope and grandiose nature, or the poetic structure that IS present in Job and the Psalms--as such these stories fall short on these grounds, and DO NOT warrant the lofty interpretations that are often inferred or infused or heaped upon them via reader response.

2. If the case is to be made that it is unfair that I judge what is essentially a short story/folktale against a fully-autonomous and far longer play...

I'll bring up for consideration the short stories of, say, Chekov or Kafka.

Ones such as "Ward No. 6" and "The Metamorphosis" are still longer, but something like Kafka's "A Hunger Artist" is, after all, relatively short...

And yet I would argue that Kafka conveys a WORLD more in terms of theme, tone, content, and depth in that space and does far more with the structure to allow for interpretations of that work than is the case with the Esau/Jacob story.

To be clear, this is not strictly a criticism of Biblical literature--

There are other stories out there--one I had to read for a class a while back, by the otherwise-talented John Updike, entitled "A&P"--that are ALSO lacking in depth and structure yet still receive the "English major treatment" (if you will) of having depth and structure "read into them" rather than actually being existent in its own right and for its own sake.

It's the difference between a reader reading something with depth and trying to construct or reconstruct an interpretation via that depth and wealth of choices and devices given by the author in a well-built work...

And the reader doing the job of the writer and reading into the text larger themes and ideas that the actual structure and content of the text does not support or warrant and thus it is the reader making the text INTO a great work, when it is anything but on its own merits.

In the same way you cannot have a blank canvas and paint a straight, black line, and nothing else, and claim you've just painted a deep and evocative portrait of The Battle of Waterloo with a full palette of colors and full of depth and meaning...

So to can you not ascribe complexity to that which does not warrant it on the basis of either its structure or content.

(And yes, I'm sure that certain Post-Modernists here would say you CAN paint that one-brushstroke black line and say you've just painted the most vivid and stirring portrait of Waterloo ever, but that's essentially breaking down all barriers of interpretation and logic and just saying anything goes--which everyone has the right to say, but if that's your choice, then we may as well quit and punt here and now, as once you say "anything counts as anything" and that a Picasso is equal to a single solitary brushstroke or two on a canvas or accidentally-splattered ink over the pages of a book are just as valid a publication as "A Tale of Two Cities," you're essentially saying that you'll twist anything into anything and allow ANY interpretation--which is again your right, but I disagree intensely and, beyond that, if ANY interpretation is allowed for ANYTHING, then really, you can interpret Esau's story however you want, rendering this debate moot and pointless.)

:)
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Oct 12 UTC
@Obi - There is one simple flaw in your comparison of the KJV Bible and Shakespeare. Shakespeare is read in the language in which it was written. The Bible is not. To properly analyze any Bible story as literature, one must read it in its original language. In the case of Esau, that would be Hebrew. Anything else is an interpretation and the monks of King James day weren't exactly translating it for.literary purposes or trying to make it a work worthy of artistic merit. The closer comparison woild be the Illiad and the Bible and.to use the most recent translations of both.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
I'd be confident pitting the Iliad against the Bible if you think that's the better way to go...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
(MY how this thread has twisted and turned...!)
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Actually, the Odyssey is probably the best comparison against the Bible, both being more story collections where as the Illiad is a single story. But even then, the issue of different authros versus one author comes into play. And in the final comparison, the intent of the author(s) and how the story was recorded has an effect on what to expect in a literary analysis.

Correct me if I'm wrong (my Homer is rather weak), but Homer was a historian and so, with the exception of some fantastic tales on the voyage home, I&O were historical narratives intended to record what had happened.

The Bible on the other hand has a duality of purpose, even in the OT. Some of the OT auhtors were trying to relay morality tales, like the stories adults tell their kids to keep them in line - the Chupa Cabra (sp?) and Hansel and Gretel and other of Grimm's fairy tales. But they were intended for adults. Yet others were intended to explain the origins and reasons for the human condition of the day. And then there were the historical records of the OT. The ability to tell the difference comes down to understanding the Hebrew writing style and analyzing each story to determine which form it was and therby gleaning the author's intent (we can't exactly interview them now, can we).

Similarly, the NT is both historical and parable in context, but it also includes letters written to individuals or groups whose content was intended to convey a purpose, not be literary works.

Finally, being a collective work of different authors, the Bible is more on par with a collection of short stories on a theme than with just one author's collective works (aka Shakespeare or Poe) and more a mixed bag of talent and hack depending on the story (like some pulp collections out of Tor, Del Ray, or Bantam).

So in that regard, the Bible is unique. It's language is two fold (Hebrrew and Greek) it's authors are many, it's purpose is varied depdning on the story, and it is old enough that things are bound to be lost in translation as well as the stories be hit and miss from a literary perspective.
SacredDigits (102 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Actually, the comparison between the KJV and Shakespeare is kind of ironic, since it's a comparison between Shakespeare and Shakespeare. He had a very strong role in that translation, where (contrary to Draug's assertion) King James wanted to make it a work of artistic merit. That's why the KJV uses a lot more flowery language than translations after it. It's also off on a number of things compared to the original texts because the English Monarchy wanted to add some politically convenient passages in.
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Oct 12 UTC
True, SD. And the monks were under pressure to make it be all flowery. But my point was more that they weren't exactly authors themselves, nor linguists of the time concerned with portraying the feel of the original text. Cmpared with the translations of say Homer or Hugo, which are done by professionals trying to convey all the nuances of the original text. The KJV translation was concerned was conveying what King James wanted conveyed combined with the essence of the stories.

Nevertheless, there can be no doubt that boht the original source of the Biblre is different in structure and development (how many books were written over a period of 4000 years by numerous authors in two different languages?) from anything else written by mankind.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
02 Oct 12 UTC
<< I would have won if Buddha hadn't interfered and clocked me over the head with the ring bell. >>

That might explain a lot. ;-)


Just Kidding!!!
FlemGem (1297 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Obi, I think you should be congratulated on starting a thread that has twisted and turned in so many directions. Started off political, now we're discussing literature and the relative merits of different interpretive schools. And I think we've found some common ground in that we have no use for post-modern interpretation.

On the one hand, I'll agree that in many ways, maybe even most ways, the Bible isn't "great literature". I think that in general it was written by simple people for simple people. So if you go to the Bible looking for Kafka or Shakespeare or Tolstoy you'll probably be disappointed. On the other hand, if you want a book that will spark the imagination and grip the heart of millions of people across language and cultural barriers for two thousand years, well, the Bible is your book. Not to take anything away from the importance of Vonnegut, but not too many villagers in the jungles of Guatemala have given up alcohol abuse and wife-beating because they took a liking to Vonnegut. Sometimes simplicity is more profound and helpful.

I think this actually applies to the Jacob/Esau story. The J/E story is one of many in the Bible that work with the theme of God overthrowing the expectations of human power systems. Esau "deserves" the blessing of Isaac because of the laws of primogeniture, but God chooses to bypass that power structure. Jacob certainly can't be commended for the way he chooses to make God's will come about, and he certainly pays a price for his underhanded dealings. But Jacob and Esau aren't really the main characters in this story anyway. Okay, off to eat lunch and get some work done.
semck83 (229 D(B))
02 Oct 12 UTC
@SD,

"Actually, the comparison between the KJV and Shakespeare is kind of ironic, since it's a comparison between Shakespeare and Shakespeare. He had a very strong role in that translation,"

Actually, that is myth / conjecture. Which is to say, it's possibly true, but there's little to no evidence.
SacredDigits (102 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
As a linguist, I did research on the Shakespeare/King James situation, and I'm comfortable enough with linguistic markers in the text to say, in my professional opinion, it's beyond possibly true. I'd go with likely.
mapleleaf (0 DX)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Snivel all you like, obi-dork. The U S of A will never be the Jew S of A (except in Jew York).

You are a nation of Jesus worshipers. I think, in order to be a TRUE American, that you ought to convert to Catholicism.


584 replies
LakersFan (899 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Stalemate lines in gunboat
Is there any generally accepted timeline for drawing as the 17 sc power when you are completely stalemated? 2 straight years of no territories exchanged was mentioned in a league rules I believe.
4 replies
Open
Zmaj (215 D(B))
02 Oct 12 UTC
EoG: 70 x 7
Nice work, guys!
3 replies
Open
CapnPlatypus (100 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Apologies
For missing the beginning of (and subsequently ruining) multiple live games over the past week or so. Clearly it's a bad idea for me to sign up for them, given that I can never remember that I HAVE. It won't happen again.
0 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
25 Sep 12 UTC
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man Ancient Med Tourney
Old thread locked so…

GAME 3 HAS CONCLUDED!
6 replies
Open
Partysane (10754 D(B))
02 Oct 12 UTC
I hate to ask this way but...
If there is a Mod around, can you look at the two mails i sent concerning an ongoing live game?
0 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
01 Oct 12 UTC
Jury Duty
So, I've been sitting in the jury pool for 4 hours now. Anyone have any good stories?
30 replies
Open
Gen. Lee (7588 D(B))
02 Oct 12 UTC
EOG - Quick Spring War - 12
7 replies
Open
lokan (0 DX)
02 Oct 12 UTC
RIGHT NOW
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=100934

Five players
1 reply
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Oct 12 UTC
Finally, My State's Done Something RIGHT! :)
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/30/14159337-california-becomes-first-state-in-nation-to-ban-gay-cure-therapy-for-children?lite

Good, good decision...despicable that people should do this to their children at all...
34 replies
Open
rokakoma (19138 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
1400D pot FP solid pos. repl. needed!
1 reply
Open
AverageWhiteBoy (314 D)
02 Oct 12 UTC
Sound financial planning and gun ownership in Florida
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlvLUcaRdGI

Seriously, Republicans, why did this guy not perform at the RNC?
2 replies
Open
rokakoma (19138 D)
01 Oct 12 UTC
what wrong with you fullpressers?
What's the reason of the very few high pot FP games?
43 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
02 Oct 12 UTC
gameID=100893
I played like an idiot. Sorry Germany, nice try Austria.
9 replies
Open
Sandgoose (0 DX)
30 Sep 12 UTC
Need the pauses please
As requested I will be going on vacation and need the pauses for all my games...if you are in any of the below listed games...please issue the pause...thank you.
10 replies
Open
trip (696 D(B))
01 Oct 12 UTC
The Lusthog Squad (Games 1 & 2)
Please vote to pause both games. Thank you.
0 replies
Open
SplitDiplomat (101466 D)
01 Oct 12 UTC
Barn3tt for president
Congratulations to the new king of webDiplomacy.net!
Welldone Barn,you deserved it!
15 replies
Open
Optimouse (107 D)
01 Oct 12 UTC
We need a Germany ASAP! Spring 1901
So our Germany, charmingly named "Large Pecker", was banned for cheating. I know nothing further, but the game starts in 18 min and we don't have a Germany, so come on! The game is called Marry You.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=100664#gamePanel
1 reply
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1238 D)
01 Oct 12 UTC
Italy and Germany, can you please unpause?
This is a live game. If we don't get it unpaused soon, it will languish forever.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=100864#votebar
0 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
30 Sep 12 UTC
Don't let the fatties guilt you
As above, below.
60 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
30 Sep 12 UTC
Fortress Door Banned....for *spamming*...
That's gay...Banning someone from playing games because of forum activity is ridiculous. Good god...If you don't like someone's forum posts, MUTE THEM! Fucking mods....
10 replies
Open
NigelFarage (567 D)
30 Sep 12 UTC
Thank you mods
The three most annoying multis in webdip history, HonJon, samdude28, and WildX were finally banned. On behalf of anyone who had to suffer through a game with them, thank you for this
12 replies
Open
akilies (861 D)
27 Sep 12 UTC
NFL Pick'em Week 4
The regular refs are back - does this mean the last three weeks were just pre season stuff??
13 replies
Open
yaks (218 D)
01 Oct 12 UTC
Sitter
Would someone be able to sit my account tommorow? I only have one current game running and you would only need to enter orders for one season, I just dont want to NMR. Thanks.
2 replies
Open
EightfoldWay (2115 D)
30 Sep 12 UTC
Need a Replacement, Starting from the First Move
gameID=100580 needs a replacement for Germany, who was just banned. It's naturally a relatively good position-- we haven't even done the first move yet! Any replacements would be tremendously appreciated.
0 replies
Open
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