Extremely disappointed. I don't think it's fair to say I "turned back" too late - I was constantly moving up against Carthage.

I had no idea why Egypt sought to attack me rather than put up necessary defenses against Carthage. Completely insane.

Purely curious Roka, do you flip a coin on those 50/50 ones? I often do, otherwise I go crazy thinking about it.

Sarg: yes, it wasn't fair, I just had a feeling.
Also if you take a look at the map at Spring, 8 it's funny to see 5 greek units east, where there's no fight going on at all, and only 1 unit west, where carthage was attacking full force.

When I saw this picture, I was scared, it was an upside down arrangements of your units. Of course, I have to agree, egypt's pressure was totally unnecessary at this point.

Yes, that is exactly the point, I sent my units east because neither Persia or Egypt had voted draw. They did not realise we needed to work together. If Egypt was going to keep attacking me of course I was going to defend against him so that he realised attacking me would let Carthage win. He did not realise this until far too late.

Yeah, I think he was quite late turning back, also he left 1 army in jerusalem too long.
When Carthage has moved to Mauretania (Autumn,8), it was clear he is going after Egypt, still, he didn't start defending himelf, despite he was still defending against me (Persia).

Thank you.

Poozer: I almost flipped one, seriously, the only reason not doing that, was, I couldn't find a coin without standing up from my chair :D :D. It's doesn't worth overthinking these situations.

From Spring 6 through Autumn 8 I was attempting to prop up Persia against what I saw as a continued greek attack on Persia despite the threat from Carthage. I was attempting to pressure you to pull back from Persia.

My gunboat tactics are far from refined, and I admit I made several gross mistakes (persia I considered boarding a convoy to alexandria but decided that if the convoy wasn't present, sinai was the safer move, and I never really considered taking tyre as a serious option), but I saw no clear sign from greece till Autumn 8 that there was any interest in a joint move against carthage. It seemed from my perspective that greece was signaling to carthage that he wished to work with carthage against myself and persia, so I thought the game was pretty much over at that point either way.

All my gunboats prior to this having been against rather more inept players I joined this fray to see what I could learn from the best. Turns out I have much to learn.

I'm open to critique of my play and I'd like to learn how best to improve, but I'd like to know if there was any point Sarg that you were attempting to work with Carthage against Persia and myself?

Wow, I just realized, Egypt was moving in the very last turn! Jesus Christ!

@Leif, fair enough

I think, the most you can learn, is trust the others they will make no mistake, when you turn back and start to fight the biggest one. Sometimes it's hard to find the right moment, but once you start defense, do it 100% and beleive the others, who put 500+ points into the game as bet, are qualified enough not to risk weakening you, the last line of defense.

That's the biggest thing I learned having you as my neighbor in persia.. My move alexandria to sinai after seeing your move to tyre was indicative of my lack of trust (too much regular diplomacy in my history, too little gunboat?) and was likely my biggest wasted move. I also see now the benefit of taking tyre when you offered as that probably would have allowed me to set a permanent line against carthage.

@Leif: No, there was no point that I was trying to work with Carthage. I actually wanted to work with Persia against you. I moved all of my units away from Persia, after I gave his army in Armenia a support hold. It was a clear sign of peace. Persia disbanded the army in Armenia and I moved away. For whatever reason, Persia then decided to send armies north towards me again (this seemed crazy and pointless to me because he just disbanded Armenia) so I had to move two units back.

Persia's game seemed slightly odd to me as well to be honest. He tried to dominate both sides - extending to Chersonesus and trying to take Jerusalem. What is the point to antagonise both neighbours like that? Persia could never decide which way he wanted to go and this was a problem for me.

I always try to open neutrally in Ancient Med games - I did that in this game and wanted to see who would be aggressive towards me. I found an odd situation where Rome was clearly facing an aggressive Carthage but Rome still wanted to bounce me out of Dalmatia. Then on my other side I had a Persia facing a Carthage-Egypt alliance who still wanted to commit too many armies to the north. It seemed ridiculous - so I tried to send units to cover both sides, which actually worked very well. I dominated the poorly defended, over-extended Roman and Persian centers on my border.

But then I had a problem deciding where to concentrate on. I was worried about Carthage's growth and realised he was the solo threat. I pulled away from Persia and wanted to send all units towards Carthage. However, at the same time, because I had 1 center more than Carthage, it seemed that Egypt and Persia decided I was the solo threat.

This is a clear mistake. People should look at the position on the board to judge who is a solo threat and NOT simply look at total number of centers, which is far too simple a way to judge such an issue.

So yes, Egypt and Persia attacked me and I figured it carry on defending against Carthage and die to Egypt or pull all my units away from Carthage and defend against Egypt and Persia so that they realise the solo threat. They realised too late.

Leif: yes, I would have probably taken back tyre, and build a new ship, you could have destory a useless unit, and build a newone in the right place.

Sometimes I do dislodge my allies unit, hoping they will disband it instead o retreating and build a new one at home.

@roka: "but once you start defense, do it 100% and beleive the others,"

That's slightly hypocritical. Your fleets did not move fast enough. You left them back far too long. If your fleets had been in Aegean and Egyptian Sea it would have been easier to hold the line.

Sarg: I agree with most of your assesment, I didn't played well in this game. From h very beginnning it seemed to me, both egypt and greece are attacking me, so I kind of tried to fight on both borders, hoping carthage will be fast enough to make one of you turn back.

Luckily he was. Sadly, the turn back(s) were late.

How was I attacking you from the very beginning? I moved to Aegean Sea and Byzanitum and sent my other unit towards Rome.

@Sarg: well, egypt wasn't pulling back fast enough, I wasn't sure he sees the seriousness of the threat. But as I sad, I didn't play well, I know.

I didn't take egyptian see, because I wanted to leave room for egypt to be able to retreat somewhere. Otherwise we have lost too many units. Even though we have lost one of his ships at the end.

I failed to secure any ally, and when Carthage was left alone with nothing to draw his focus away from me, I was doomed. I depressingly short game for me.

Sarg, why did you assume aggression on my part? I wanted a third build to counter Carthage, but I didn't know the protocol for Greece-Rome, so I just guessed. I did not WANT to bounce you out of Dalmatia. Was that what made you turn around and fight me later?

Taking both chersoneous and sinope, forcing me to disband a unit is considered as an attack :)

That I do understand, that I turned much too late to be effective at holding off Carthage.

Spring 7 appears to me in hindsight the best indication to have turned east to face carthage and to have taken tyre.

At that point though, I admit I had still in my mind a focus against you Sarg, having seen you disband gaul in autumn 6, and wanted to get persia back on his feet so that I wouldn't be facing you and carthage alone..

@Vaft: Yes absolutely it was. It seems quite obvious to me that Rome gets Vindobona and Greece should get Dalmatia. That is a fair split. That you would choose to go for Dalmatia in 1901 when it is clear that it was a center I trying to go for, and when you could have take Vindobona guaranteed, was a hostile action.

My impression is that you wanted to bounce me there because you wanted to ally with Carthage and attack me. Obviously, Carthage built aggressively towards you and so that option was removed.

@roka: But I see Chersoneous as Greek. You sent 2 of your units towards me in the first 2 years of the game. That seemed aggressive to me and was the reason I attacked you to take back those centers.

@Vaft: again. You say that you "did NOT want to bounce me out of Dalmatia", but then why did you move there? It was obvious that Dalmatia was the only center I could move to with that army and you had Vindobona guaranteed. As far as I can see, you actively chose to bounce me.

@sarg:
I understand. I think chersoneous is one of the most important territories on this map. Whenever I'm greece or persia, I go for chersoneous asap. I took sinope this time, to show, I'm not trying to get behind you.

I'm glad to read so many misunderstandings, it really shows me, we are not that good on this map as most of us is on the classic, where we clearly know the stalemate lines.

You could have gone to Vind too. Maybe Dal is more logical. I don't know. After that mistake, I thought my fleet builds would show what my intentions were. At no point did I intend to ally with Carthage.

He didn't have Vindobona guaranteed, Sarg. Illyria borders both Vindobona and Dalmatia. It was a 50/50 guess and y'all guessed wrong.

And since Rome has no choice but to position itself to take either one (only gets there via Venetia, which borders both), the responsibility is on Greece to clear up the ambiguity by moving to Epirus instead of Illyria.

Also, Chersonesus isn't necessarily Greek. It's equidistant from both Persia and Greece. I go for Chersonesus no matter which side I am (to the point of putting a fleet in the Black Sea by S2) because I think it's incredibly vital to both states in attacking the other. It's a lot like Belgium for France and Germany.

Hm, ok Eden. Thanks.

I agree with you sarg on Dalmatia. As rome, unless greece doesn't try for dalmatia, vindobona is roman and dalmatia is greek.

However, at least one of Sinope or cheronesus is usually persian and the other greek if not both. I saw no persian attack against greece until you forced him out of cheronesus; pressing him in sinope sealed the indication to me that I needed to help persia and carthage against you in the coming years.

thank you PE, I couldn't agree more on Chersonesus, as I stated above as well.

@Vaft: Yes, you're right. I could have gone to Vindobona as well, I forgot that, I apologise! Oh well, I still felt that you moving to Dalmatia was more aggressive than me moving to Illyria. I'm just explaining my rationale - I'm not making judgements or saying a certain expected action is right or wrong.

sorry one or both are often persian..

@roka et al:

I did not say "Chersonesus is always Greek. FACT."

I said I saw it as Greek. My personal feeling. I needed somewhere to expand. I saw Chersonesus as mine. There is no right or wrong to my own personal feeling in a particular game.

Yes, it's like Belgium. But I think France has more right to claim Belgium than Germany. I felt in this game I as Greece had more right to claim Chersonesus.

fair enough

Thank you :)

(n.b.: the reason "Dalmatia is Greek, Vindobona is Roman" shows up is typically because Greece sends Macedonia east, whether toward Chersonesus or Byzantium/Miletus, etc., leaving Athens to go pick up something in the northwest; and only -> Epi -> Dal works. sometimes though you get crossups like these. shame when they happen :( )

I'd like to continue to leave behind the mediocre players of my past and learn from players such as yourselves, though unfortunately, with my point total dropping by more than half I'm no longer able to commit to such high stakes games.

Is anybody interested in a low point rematch, same map, where I can continue to improve my gunboat play and learn from the best?

What to say after a game when all the powers are playing for you,thank you guys all!
I don't remember everything but these are unforgetable:
First Greece moves to Illyria and deny Rome an extra build because of that strange move.
Then he turns back after a year to help me destroy Rome.After that Rome disbands Punic and Tyrhenian.A little bit after Greece disbands Gaul and moves all his units away from me allowing to take the rest of Rome and Vindobona and Dalmatia while him and Persia are still not friendly to eachother.
Then Egypt decides to attack Crete! Egypt played excellent the whole game except that order,we had a great NAP and I wouldn't have been able to break him.
And finaly Persia delaying to come with his fleets to defend Egypt and Greek.
I feel if I hadn't broken into Egypt I might have been able to break into Aegean and take something from Greece to reach 18,that's how you all were willing to let me win.
Thanks again.

lol, grats on your win, hope my "assistance" didn't spoil the victory too much for you..

Spoil? No,it was the key of my victory,without it it wouldn't have been any kind of a solo here,thank you.