TC, do you think it's a fair assessment to say that European culture in general (perhaps as emblemized by the Dutch, Swedes, Germans, Swiss) is better built for social democracy and its markedly different view on taxation, work and labor, and the role of government from American free-market capitalism (and, in reverse, that American culture is better built for American free-market capitalism than European social democracy)?

If so, is there much point to harping on Europe so much?

For those that say lowering taxes can't increase tax revenue for the government Dr. Prescott's research proves you wrong.

After the 1998 Spanish tax reform that flattened the Spanish income tax schedule in much the same way that the 1986 U.S. tax reform flattened the U.S. tax schedule.
Subsequently, Spanish labor supply increased by 12 percent and tax revenue by a few percent.

LOL I'm literally right now reading an analysis of that article -- I just took a break to goof around on webdip.

I work 10 hours a day, sometimes 12...and it really is off no comfort that average European works less (and probably for more money). :)

Yep, that's the reason for economic crises. There's just an epidemic laziness.

Europeans work less because their tax structure provides more benefits not to work than work. This is why the European standard of living is consistently lower than the American standard of living, Europeans have a consistently higher rate of unemployment over time, and Europeans have higher percentages of debt to GDP.

perhaps they like working less and having more time off? I for one am very money and consumption oriented. I personallay prefer working longer hours to have more stuff and more financial security especially compared to my neighbors. Maybe culturally they just feel different? That's neither good nor bad, each individual just has to weigh what's valuable to them and act accordingly and hopefully not impose their preferences on others

Chewie, I don't think the facts are on your side of this argument. For one thing, the U.S. has such a disparity of income compared to Europe that we have many more people without medical care or a living wage, for example.

Here's a link to and an excerpt from a year-old Reuters article (Yes, it's European, so there might be a bias, but take a look.): "The relative rankings of countries tend to be defined by gross domestic product per capita but Hill points out that this might not be the best yardstick because it does not differentiate between transactions that add to the well-being of a country and those that diminish it. A dollar spent on sending a teenager to prison adds as much to GDP as a dollar spent on sending him to college.

On a long list of quality-of-life indexes that measure things beyond the GDP yardstick — from income inequality and access to health care to life expectancy, infant mortality and poverty levels — the United States does not rank near the top.

So where is the best place to live? For the past 30 years, a U.S.-based magazine, International Living, has compiled a quality-of-life index based on cost of living, culture and leisure, economy, environment, freedom, health, infrastructure, safety and climate. France tops the list for the fifth year running. The United States comes in 7th." http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2010/02/12/who-wins-in-u-s-vs-europe-contest/

BULLSHIT. Americans play more WebDiplomacy and forum chat at work than Europeans, who get to go home to finish their conversations.

Good stuff TC, very good stuff...kind of wish I was in economics again. T_T

Mujus, if you compare the living standards of the quintiles, the five 20% slices, of the United States and Europe those living in the United States enjoy a higher standard of living. The lowest 20% of Americans have a higher standard of living than the lowest 20% of Europeans.
The fact that the richest 20% of Americans dwarf the richest 20% of Europe.
In the United States the rule is equality of opportunity and the ability to rise or fall based on your own merits.
In contrast Europe stresses equality of outcome which penalizes everyone with more than average ability.
A famous economist said a society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.
This is exactly what is happening to Europe. By putting equality before freedom Europe has created a society that effectively subdues entrepreneurship and the work ethic.
As a result European governments have run deficits for decades because they pay out more than people pay in.
So now you have Greeks committing suicide in the streets because the government is failing to keep its unkeepable promises.
Portugal, Spain, and Italy are next in line.

Europeans used to work more than Americans 40 years ago.
Today European productivity per working hour is equal to if not slightly higher than American productivity.
So if you are as productive or more productive why wouldn't Europeans work more to enjoy a better standard of living?
Because at a certain point Europe's tax system becomes so onerous it doesn't pay to work anymore because you don't get to keep the fruits of your labor.
Europeans enjoy an equitable standard of living in their societies, but the European pay a price for this equality.
Even when you factor in social programs Europeans receive their standard of living is significantly below the average in America.
The other fact is that the government programs in Europe are fiscally unsustainable.
A society that emphasizes equality more than freedom will get little of either, but a society that promotes freedom over equality will get a large measure of both.

A good thing about TC is that since he's muted me, I can use his threads to have a friendly chat in! He won't be bothered by my evil socialist propaganda, and I don't have to start new threads. Everybody wins.

So I'm hungry but I have no idea what to make. Suggestions? I'm a vegetarian and allergic to nuts, but anything else goes.

Crash course in Stats and Economics by Tettleton's Chew:

So I got 8 dudes and they earn per day...

$1 + $1 + $1 + $1 + $1 + $1 + $1 + $100000000?

What the hell are they complaining about?

The average income is really really good!

When my parents were at school (1960s mostly) they were taught how in the future people would work 20 hour weeks as machines would perform most tasks currently carried out by workers. We were to soon move into a golden age of humanity in which family and leisure time dominated. Everyone would have forfilling careers with minimal stress but the potential for great reward...

...what the hell happened?!?

Americans work more because we don't know how to enjoy life.

Also Octavious that's outrageous lol what made them think that machines replacing jobs wouldn't just lead to unemployment and low wages?

@ Thucy

The twenty hour week bit, Thucy old chap. If people work 40 hour weeks and machines take over half the work, you can achieve the same level of emplyment with people doing twenty hour weeks. Obviously the reality would be more complicated, but the general idea is very simple.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

Come to Vegas Thucy, and learn about life your poor naive child.

The high marginal taxes in Europe that destroyed the work ethic and created a sense of entitlement to government programs are coming home to roost now.
First Greece, then Ireland, and finally Portugal; now Spain is going to need a bailout and the question is where will the money come from, not if it will be needed.
Italy has an economy larger than Spain's and Italy is on the brink of fiscal failure as well.
The welfare state funded by high marginal taxes destroyed the work ethic in Europe and a false sense of entitlement, and that combination is destroying the economy of the continent.
We are watching a tragedy unfold across the Atlantic in the EU.

"Come to Vegas Thucy, and learn about life your poor naive child."

Erm.... am I being propositioned?

Anyway, there are two sorts of people in this context:

People who value the material, and people who value the experiential.

Someone who values the material will question someone would spend money on something like a class or a vacation, because these things have no tangible persistence past their end date, they are valuable only for the memory and the experience. The material oriented person would rather buy an appliance or other tangible possession. The experiential person will have an equally difficult time understanding why someone would forgo a vacation to save up for a car, or why a person supposes that a larger TV is worth it in exchange for low quality meals.

Europeans as a culture, then, appear to be experiential in that they value experience more and take more vacations. American tend to have more material goods than Europeans because we value the material, and use our resources on that instead of on vacations.

I happen to be an experiential sort of person, which is why I would probably take a lower paying job with more vacation than not all other things being equal.

But I digress.

"I happen to be an experiential sort of person, which is why I would probably take a lower paying job with more vacation than not all other things being equal. "

You're not the only one. That view is becoming a generational trait of millenials.

It's a part of the European dream.

@TC - I live in the UK with 62m other people, in 2011 we produced $1,150b in international trade. One would expect the 310m people of the USA (5 times as many people) to produce somewhere near $5,750b; but alas they only managed $3,850b. perhps you are all working hard without working smart?

Let me know when you and your fellow countrypeople catch up and we'll stop playing cricket in order for us to regain our advantage. the game goes on for day and days you know?

Maniac, if you count trade with the rest of the EU states as "international", maybe the US should count inter-state trading as international as well... Why is the "international trade" parameter that important to you?

Yes, Maniac, you are counting trade within the EU I am assuming? Can we count our own domestic trade also? EU is really just shaping up to be USSR light anyways. Poor Europeans, I am but 1 generation removed from there, so I have strong connections there.

However, on THAT NOTE, my own government is the pits also, so I really got no room to talk.

@Alex - International trade is important because it earns the country money whereas internal trade is largely irrelevant. If the 3 peasant farmers in africa each grow a separate crop and selling 2/3rds to the others, then it matters not if they value these transactions in grots, dollars, lira or billions of dollars, they cancel one another out.

International trade is generally measured in US Dollars and earns the exporting country revenue and helps reduce their deficients (or make a surplus)

Whilst the EU is a loose federation in is in no way similar to the USA, the UK is not subserveant to the EU, it retains it's own sovereignty and currency.

maniac, but you have no tariffs and such, just like our intra-state trading.

Maniac, that is not true at all. If they sell internally, they are still doing the WORK, thus the production, right? We are not discussing who exports the most, we are talking about working hours.

Thucy, people who claim to love the experiential are people who don't know how to make money, and need an excuse. Thank you for self-identifying.

Not everyone loves money, TC

Maniac, international trade earns you money if and only if you export more then you import...

Actually, the UK is the 2nd biggest net importer in the world and is even worse in this regard per capita than the USA (whose net imports pretty much equal net imports of the rest of the world).

You can of course disregard intra-EU trade, just like you can disregard Hong Kong, the two usual candidates for this understandable treatment. But equaling it to the intrastate trade in the US is borderline stupid. The USA is a political union, while EU only has a single market (and Euro area has a monetary union). In the terms of the integration steps, EU is somewhere between a customs union and a political union. Instead of saying it is the same as a political union akin to the US, I could also say it is the same as a customs union EU has with Turkey. Hell, I could stretch it all the way to FTAs like NAFTA. False analogy cuts both ways.

Exactly my point, this whole "international trade volume" comparison is pointless.

People who only like money are attempting to find a substitute for happiness and need an excuse for their own insecurities.

2NDWHITELINE

2NDWHITELINE EXACTLY my point sir. People obsessed with chasing material things are chasing a pipedream. Live your life to be happy, not to impress your stupid neighbor.

Why do people believe that one solution fits all situations....Either its always tax cuts or its always spending. As for some Nobel prize winner having the final word on Economics I believe John Maynard Keynes won the Nobel prize and I doubt you will be singing his praises.

No Thucy, you are wrong and that is a habit of yours. Everyone loves money because everyone loves what money can do. For example they love playing diplomacy online and you can't do that unless someone's money gives you access to a computer and pays for internet access.
My favorite thing to do with money, buy insurance. I love spending money on auto insurance, life insurance, health insurance, disability insurance, long-term care insurance, business insurance, fire insurance, earthquake insurance, and flood insurance.

I love the fools who think a trade deficit is a bad thing.
I import oil from Saudi Arabia whenever I fill up my take with gasoline. I use that imported oil to drive to work where I multiply that investment many times over.
I don't consider that gasoline a waste at all.
In fact it empowered me to be more productive than I ever would have been without it.
It's what you do with the imports that is the important thing.
An import-export balance is nothing but a sheet of paper for individuals with empty minds to stare at.
Hell Wal-Mart imports tons of stuff from China and exports money.
Wal-Mart isn't complaining. They make more selling the imports than the money they exported to purchase them.
The lack of business knowledge and business economics is truly a tragic aspect of American society today.
Obama is at the top of the list of those ignorant of business and business economics.
I don't think that fool could make money selling rubbers in a brothel.

Nope. I don't love money. Sorry.

Money is not the only thing that can make things happen. You are right that there is always a cost, but it is not always money. While I understand that in this world money is needed to make good things happen, I strongly lament the effect money has on people.

The love of money isn't the root of *all* evil but it *is* the root of most.

Outside of maintaining physical health, money has no correlation with happiness at all. So why would I love it?

Thucy, you are young and stupid. Good luck to you child. You'll need all you can get.

Thucy, how much of "other" people's money do you love? LOL!

Thucy, whose money is paying for your college? Whose money is paying for your health insurance? Who money is paying your rent.
You say you don't love money, but you love using other people's money.

^If you have so much money why do you need insurance?

"Thucy, how much of "other" people's money do you love? LOL!"

None, next question?

I love my parents, not their money.

Even worse Thucy, you use the sweat of their brow and you don't even have the self -respect to make your own way. You're like Mitt Romney, silver spoon and all.
I wonder how your thought process works. You think "I could work and contribute to the family fortune and keep the parent's nest egg from diminishing, but that would cut into my kick back time and vacations they pay for. Why Work when I can chill."
Adults make their own way in the world, but that's something you are completely unfamiliar with.

Most Americans understand that you only get out of this life what you work for and they work to satisfy their wants and desires. The stats support that reality.
Europeans and teenagers with insatiable sense of entitlement think that everything is owed to them. No wonder Europe is going bankrupt and kids with college educations are sleeping in Occupy hamlets or rioting in British streets.