@ava - So what circumstances made Zimmerman think Martin would try to kill him? The hoodie? The race? (I know you said no race card, but your argument begs examining it in Zimmerman's motivations/fears) Or was there something else? I don't buy it because *nothing* that has been reported as evidence beyond heresay in any way implies Martin did anything except possibly turn to face down his stalker. Oh, and stalkign someone with a gun when the police told you not to? Sort of a crime in itself that negates any possible use of the self-defense defense. If, in the commission of a crime (the stalking after being told to stay put by the cops) you kill someone, you cannot claim self defense. Otherwise, every criminal who shoots a cop could claim self defense as he thought the cop would shoot him.

Don't know what a strategic form game is, but basically, in my view this resulted from a series of escalations.

Kid walking down street > Zimmerman follows kid > Kid feels threatened/ angry he is being followed > Zimmerman confronts kid > Kid beats the crap out of zimmerman> Kid sees zimmerman has a gun > kid fears for his life and (according to zimmerman) reaches for gun > Zimmerman fears for life, shoots kid

In this scenario I actually doubt the law had much to do with it. The law that has more to do with it is the concealed carry law, which allowed Zimmerman to bring a gun to a fist fight.

Without getting too far off topic, this situation actually has alot in common with the Gaza flotilla in my opinion. The Israelis claimed force was necesary because the people on the boat were attacking, kidnapping, stabbing soldiers, which is by all accounts true. But what the fuck were you doing rappelling onto the boat in the first place. Stop the ship some other way. Why give these series of escalations a chance to happen. For that reason, the Israeli military was ultimately responsible for the carnage that occurred on the ship despite the fact the first blow might have come from the passengers.

Of course it was the hoodie and the race in this scenario. By the same token, if I go down to any number of neighborhoods in Detroit and walk down the street, I am likely to become a victim of crime because I am a white guy...

...in fact, it has happened to me...

Anyone that thinks that blacks are somehow immune from racism, and are immune from acting our preemtively based upon their own racial stereotypes just has his head buried up his ass.

IN the scenario of game theory, it's kill or be killed; fast draw wins, and without witnesses...

As for shooting a cop and getting away with it - you have to somehow convince a judge and jury that the cop was a murderous vigilante when you shot him - much harder case to make.

@ava, I'll reply later when I have time, but I presume you want answers grounded (somewhat) in the ideas of game theory?

By ideas, I mean framework

<sarcasm>I blame Ted Kaczynski (the original unabomber). He made the hoodie "cool" as a means of hiding his identity.</sarcasm>

Seriously, this was a case of escalation. And Zimmerman's lame "I thpought he was gonna pull a gun" bullshit doesn't add up when you consider he had already called 911 and was told to *not* follow. He killed someone while in the commission of a crime. there is no self-defense excuse. He directly ignored the orders of a 911 operator (who is a police representatives and whose orders are to be obeyed under penalty of law the same as if given by a cop of the street) and therefore has only himself to blame. It's not a matter of if he committed a crime, but what crime he committed that resulted in the young man's death. Is it involuntary manslaughter? Voluntary manslaughter? A lesser "murder" charge that doesn't have premeditation involved?

I can't speak to exactly which crime he committed but there can be no doubt ignoring a police representative's direct orders, especially by one who is part of a neghborhood watch program and therfore *knows* his obligation to obey) is a crime.

Zimmerman said "fucking coons always get away with it" before he shot the kid with skittles. The only thing Krellin can say is either 1 - but it's still not racism because a white guy did it and 2- whitey has it worse and all black people are criminals.

Sick.

"(My professor never mentioned racism in class, and I would appreciate it if you didn't either in your replies here.)"

So we have to ignore the main issue (besides insane gun laws)? Brilliant.

When did Zimmerman become white? Last I saw him he was latino.

Latinos can be white, and anyway Zimmerman is half-Latino.

He is being described as "White" Latino in the media. Half your problem there concerning Racism which is not supposed to be the main point of this thread. However it's going to be almost impossible to separate it.

@HC - Latino refers to the community/country of a person's origins and isn't actually a race. As Putin points out, Latinos can be white. In fact, Spain is considered part of Europe and we generally view Europeans as white, yet Mexico has it's primary origins from the Spanish explorers and settlers, resulting in the Latino being anything from white to black (in theory) to what we commonly refer to as "Mexican" but has absolutely zero to do with race. Here is his picture (along with his victim) so you can see.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_ht_trayvon_martin_george_zimmerman_2_jt_120318_wg.jpg

My understanding, (and I could be wrong) was both of those photos were like 5 years out of date? Has anyone else heard anything to that affect?

My gods, men. Hath not a Jew eyes? Can thou not read?

"game theoretically, the law gave the neighborhood watch guy the correct incentives to shoot Treyvor Martin on the grounds of self-defense."

This right here is the crux of what ava is asking about. I'm going to quote his explanation of it as well.

"His explanation: the Florida law allows anyone to pull out a gun and shoot another person if they think that the other person will try to kill them. So, logically, Treyvor Martin could have done the same thing because the NWA guy was likely to kill him, and so it was just a matter of who had the gun."

Ava, I think this is an interesting view of the whole matter. It strips all societal frameworks and applies a new one that explains the situation equally well. I think that, given that Zimmerman is racist, this game theory model explains his actions (and why he is getting away with it) pretty well. The law incentivised him. And of course, everyone is ignoring the "catch phrase" that is allowing him to get off but is also the main point of the law incentivisation: "on the grounds of self-defense." He could really shoot the guy for any reason he desired, and the law allows him to, "on the grounds of self-defense." This game theory application is pretty good.

Of course, the question is then begged, can this game theory model, with the idea of "law incentivisation," be extrapolated to the general case instead of this sole specific case?

That said, I think Draug's larger context of the 911 operator et al really throws a kink into the application of this model and makes it invalid. But I still like the idea in concept, however flawed it may be.

How's that, ava? Sort of the response you're looking for?

I would honestly like to apologize for our president for the heartlessness of him wanting voter appeal. The comment that if I had a son it would look look like Treyvor. It disgusts me that he would use a possible tragic murder of a teen to help secure the African American vote.

@Putin
"The only thing Krellin can say is either 1 - but it's still not racism because a white guy did it and 2- whitey has it worse and all black people are criminals."

First off what you are saying is racist that Krellin is trying to defend him for "racist" actions. I believe his point was that he does not think it was do to racial circumstances. I honestly would be suspicious of any hooded teen walking around a neighborhood at midnight while it is raining when the neighborhood has had recent break ins. If Trayvon was assaulting him then I do not blame Zimmerman for pulling a gun out if he feared his life. If Zimmerman confronted him after police told him not too than he should be charged for that but it does not justify Trayvon assualting him. Both of the parties were guilty in this situation. If Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and Trayvon did nothing but told him to back off and Zimmerman pulled a gun than he definitly should be charged for murder. However, he was afraid and he had a gun. Don't tell me if you were being assaulted and you had a gun you wouldn't try to pull it out.

I'm sad (not really) that I can't see Putin's (no-doubt ASININE) response to me....and yet I believe HC has probably adequately stated a defense to Putin's assholishness.

God how I have come to EMBRACE mute as a joyful, wonderful tool.

And...in apparent response to Putin....I NEVER said it's not racism....in fact, I believe up above I said that, by game theory, it ABSOLUTELY is racism....but real life is not game theory. And, as for whitey has it worse than blacks??? Good god, moron, if I've ever said that, DEMONSTRATE IT....otherwise....I believe it is YOU, Putin, who constantly sees race, who constantly judges one mans ability to succeed versus another based upon race. *I* actually see all men as equal. Putin and his liberal friends tends to see every man by his perceived disability (for Putin, you are handicapped by your skin, you know) and Putin thinks everyone needs their special allowances....So who's the racist???

"honestly would be suspicious of any hooded teen walking around a neighborhood at midnight while it is raining "

I'd be more nervous if it wasn't raining.

There needs to be a named rule, similar to Godwin's law, that whenever an issue involving racism or sexism comes up, somebody will come along and explain how white dudes are the Real Victims Here.

"You talk about all those rapes, but did you ever stop to consider people falsely accused of rape? That's the real problem in America today!"

See also, "Yeah, but why isn't there a White Entertainment Network?"

And the UCCF - United Causation College Fund. After all, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Caucasian - stupid autocorrect didn't have it in the dictionary.

I like United /Causation/ College Fund better. It correlates well.

" I believe his point was that he does not think it was do to racial circumstances."

He said. FUCKING COONS ALWAYS GET AWAY WITH IT.

You and Krellin need to don your white hoods and leave us alone.

And....again....Putin is tooooo fucking STUPID to read and comprehend.

"...I NEVER said it's not racism..." I quote myself....

Fucking dumbass...

Once again.... lets put Putin and TC in a steel cage death match!

Oh hey, the TC thread bumps did not occur this past Friday. You think he's... Gone?

I read today that Martin confronted Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground with a single punch and then proceeded to slam Zimmerman's head into the pavement, whereupon Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot him. Apparently there were witnesses. Does that thicken the plot?

No it doesn't. This is Zimmerman's account. Who are these 'witnesses'? Why wasn't the girlfriend spoken with? Why are the police leaking shit about marijuana?

If it were true would it thicken the plot?
Clearly there a difference between saying "hey kid stop!" bang
And "what are you following me for?" punch scuffle bang
Or not? Or are you arguing that Zimmerman's account cannot conceivably be true? Or does it not matter?

First of all Zimmerman already lied, since he claimed he was "retreating". How was he "retreating" if he was punched in the face? How do you get punched in the face from behind?

Second of all how does this excuse why the police released Zimmerman and didn't even interview key figures in the story? How does this absolve Zimmerman for shooting a man he stalked in a car with a gun after telling the dispatchers that "fucking coons always get away with it"?

Most likely, it only accentuates how much the Sanford police dicked things up (probably because they assumed a black kid had it coming). Somehow, a confrontation began. Zimmerman was getting beaten up, and he killed a kid. It's possible that halfway decent police work would have preserved or discovered physical evidence or other evidence regarding how the confrontation began. As it is, the case will likely be unsolvable.

I have no idea what the truth is but I think Zimmerman claims he was trying to return to his SUV.
It is simpler to think of this as a hate crime but maybe it is more complicated. I read that witnesses saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin above him.
If Zimmermam's account is true then this whole affair is closer to an accident than a hate crime. Yes Zimmerman was being a dick, but this does not necessarily make him a cold blooded murderer.
On the other hand white people have been oppressing black people for centuries so perhaps it is time for a white man to feel the lynchman's noose?

Putin...have you never walked backwards??? Seriously???? You are too stupid to think that someone can be back-pedaling away from an aggressor, but still keep their face to them? SERIOUSLY??? You are THAT STUPID???

"On the other hand white people have been oppressing black people for centuries so perhaps it is time for a white man to feel the lynchman's noose?"

Are you really comparing Zimmerman to victims of lynchings?

"I read that witnesses saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin above him."

Yes from the Orlando Sentinel, who have basically been the police's/Zimmerman's mouthpiece from the beginning. Again, who are these mysterious "witnesses"? Why isn't the girlfriend being considered a witness?

"Yes Zimmerman was being a dick, but this does not necessarily make him a cold blooded murderer. "

We don't know. You're just treating some report as if it was the final word on the story. He chased a kid while carrying a gun, all the while ranting about how these "assholes or coons always get away with it". He said this right before he shot the kid.

Just playing devil's advocate, but the girlfirend was on the phone with him, not there in person. She didn't witness anything visually, just what she could hear which, once the scuffle began, was not reliably clear to say the least.

How do you know that? They didn't even bother to interview her. She could have heard what was said, who was confronting whom. Indeed that's what the Martin family claims.

" You're just treating some report as if it was the final word on the story."

I am not. I have no idea of the truth. I was raising a hypothetical question which I don't think you answered. IF Zimmerman's account is true does it make things more complicated - or is he still a cold blooded murderer. IF IF IF
For example does Zimmerman's provocation negate his right to self-defense?

Self-defense? I don't think self-defense includes killing any unarmed person who swings at you. A big part of this is the stupid stand your ground laws which allows this crap to happen.

How do I know she didn't witness anything visually? Are you fucking dense?

He was never a cold blooded murderer, he was always a fucking dunce who followed a kid because he was black and, later, wrote a check his ass couldn't cash and killed the kid because of it. Now we are supposed to feel sorry for him because the kid defended himself and got him a little bloody, and possibly committed the unbelievable sin of trying to disarm a man who was following him on a dark rainy night.

It's scary how much I agree with that staement, Santa.

You said she could not reliably hear anything. You have nothing to base that on.

True. That is an assumption on my part. I assume the phone was dropped int he scuffle and knowing how shitty even the best cellphones are nowadays, odds are she couldn't *reliably* hear anything. But it is an assumption based on personal experience with the crap fobbed off on us as "cellphones"

http://weknowmemes.com/2012/03/the-stand-your-ground-before-he-stands-his-ground-defense/

Also, everyone, I apologize - it's Treyvon Martin. I see my typo made it onto the rest of the thread.

The news says it's Trayvon Martin.