oops dyed in the wool.

Wasn't he just trying to reform the churhc, not create his own...? I suppose the same can be said of Jesus, though.

Can I just ask Diplomat1824 whether you agree with Luther's utterances on the Jews in particular his 'On the Jews and Their Lies'?

is curyX making a play for diplomat's "most full of BS" title ?

i grew up in an area of Australia that had a lot of German migrants, all Lutherans. they seemed like a pretty harmless liberal easy going church, is the Lutheran church in America different? because diplomat comes off quite dogmatic, strict and all fire and brimstone BS.

@ Draugnar... what?? :-) You get your history right!!!

What you say is true. It was fairly common practice to pin notices, complaints... any sort of telegram you wanted your religious leaders to read on the door. The act in itself was not meant to be an action against the church. However, as the movement grew, Luther very much went against the church, sometimes at the threat of his life. The word "reformer" comes from the German version of "Reformator," which meant at that time: 2nd Coming. Large parts of Northern Germany actually though Martin Luther was the Second Coming of Christ. And when it didn't turn out to be him, they placed it upon his heir apparent, Melanchthon, and when it wasn't him, the title was passed to his lead disciple. So we now have the word "reformer," in no small part because of Martin Luther. Luther created the modern hymnal system, translated the Bible 4 times, selling hundreds of thousands of copies in each edition. He invited students to his home, and they put together the book, "Table Talks of Martin Luther." Believe it or not, this is THE SINGLE best selling book in history. Luther was a poet and a creative writer, also known as "The German Shakespeare." His stance against Judaism and Islam helped contribute to many of the perceptions we struggle with today. He translated mass into German and was the first to do so against the Church. He also created the secular educational system in Germany in the late 1400's, early 1500's, again a first in central Europe. Luther's main rival, a Catholic Humanist named Erasmus actually valued what Luther talked about and tried his best to make sure Luther was not simply assassinated by the Southern German princes, whose very rule he was threatening with his seditious talk. Luther lobbied hard against the practice of Indulgences, where family members paid the Church money to absolve the sins of their ancestors, thereby ushering them into Heaven from Hell.

Draugnar, what you say is right, but please don't underestimate Luther's importance or his dissent from the Church, which grew against his initial will into something huge.

Another curious note about Luther is he believed much of the Bible to be not founded in reality. For instance, he thought the Book of Revelation was fiction, and not fit for the Holy text, and he questioned the reality of Genesis! He was not humble about it. Of his Biblical Translation, the Catholic Church claimed to find 169 errors. Luther responded that if they could only find 169 errors, then "They are all dumb @sses and going to Hell."

Draugar, I don't say this to demean you or insult you, but there's a lot they don't teach you about Luther at church.

I am not an English major. I value my life too much to spend it just pontificating on literary works. No offense to any English majors present. Also, homeschooled kids are an unusual breed for the rest of us who for better or for worse had to go to school. I think the stereotype tends to run that they're not as socially "adjusted", but that is obviously false based on my experience with other homeschooled people.

Lutherans, at least in America, are moderate conservative. But, hey, beggars can't be winners. Also, I watched "Luther"

bounce

Are the roasters finished?

You said he "took on the Catholic Church and won." I said he didn't win. Your own words are proof HE DIDN'T WIN. His intent was NOT to form another church at taht time, but to reform the Catholic church. Had he won, the Catholic church WOULD HAVE BEEN REFORMED, dipshit!

So where in your history dissertation did he win? How was the Cathlic church reformed as a result of the Articles? You are so full of shit and present so much non-evidence as if it were proff he won. I said check your frackin' history, he didn't win. You give me a disertation on what he did do, but never show how he won. I said his intent was not to form a new church. You admitted that was right. Just because his later writings were interpretted by a desparate populace to be the words of Christ in his second coming does not mean he intended them to believe that way. He was touched by God through his prayer, but had his faults as well. Even still, Luther did not post the articles and say "I think I'll make a new church today" nor did he reform the Catholic church.

Oh, and I saw "Luther" too... I'm still waiting for how he went up against the Catholic church and won.

BTW, I'm one of those who believes the text of Genesis and the origin story to be just that, a story. I do, however, believe Revalations was a vision sent from God, or maybe John just smoked a little too much ganja that day...

Draugnar, my thesis was "Luther and the Reformation of the Educational system in Northern Europe." I do know my history and have spent much time digging around reading old texts and Luther's writings themselves. So a "get your facts right" slam doesn't phase me. It's not productive from any angle, and I did try to be inclusive of your comments. What you said was right.

Furthermore, I have not challenged your faith or your intellect, though you seem to take offense in those matters. I don't think your anger is at me, and I'm wondering what you might be so frustrated with to call me names on a website. It's a public place to chat and have fun, so keep it clean. Your anger is misplaced. I think you're out of bounds here.

MG, my apologies. I thought that was from Diplofool.

My argument with his history was that he presented Luther as winning some perceived attack on the Catholic Church. Luther did not start with the intent of destroying the catholic church or starting a new religion. He started by attempting to change the church from within as he was a monk.

But again, I apologize. In my still sneezing, wheezing, and coughing state, I thought it was Diplofool, but that isn't an excuse. I should have checked the author. I am truly sorry.

I would also apologize to you in an email, but your profile doesn't have an email address. Once again, sorry for confusing you and Diplofool and sorry for calling you names.

Ummm wtfruitcake?

This is a roast not a religious debate :P

I'll post my burns tomorrow morning.

@Shadow Spy, yes. I spent 19 years in Los Angeles, I'm kidding.

The Catholics did reform. Do they idolize relics anymore?

They never did.

Diplomat: You're an idiot. The Roman Catholic Church has changed little in the last 500 years. Sure, indulgences are gone, but that was only one of the many changes in Luther's Articles of Reformation. I believe a Roman Catholic mass is still held in Latin, is it not? I believe priests, monks, and nuns are all still required to take vows of chastity and poverty, are they not? So how, significantly, has it changed?

Hey guys let's roast someone else:

I nominate Soulja Boy!

souljaboytellem.com

^^ mostly because i have that crappy "kiss me through the phone" stuck in my head

get out mah face!