Fascinating debate. I never understood the logic behind the 'affirmative action' type mindset. A playing field cannot be leveled by making it unlevel.

Life isn't fair. You can't legislate absolute equality. I think we've done the best we can to try and offset the disadvantages of minority communities. I don't think that any more could feasibly be done short of asset seizure or quotas.

"Diversity is nothing but left-wing racism/sexism and the word itself makes me sick to my stomach."

Dude, that is what bothers you? Diversity? Not the continuation of centuries of racial discrimination, much of through formal government policy? Not the drastic inequality in American society? Not hunger or poverty?

I hope this turns into a "proving the continuation of racial discrimination" thread. That's always valuable and productive.

@ ck

Okay, I'll bite. Why don't you prove the present continuation of racial discrimination against races which have been historically subject to discrimination on an institutional/political/policymaking/legal level.

"I hope this turns into a "proving the continuation of racial discrimination" thread."

Go for it. I look forward to formulating a rebuttal.

"I am so sick of hearing the whole "privilege" bullshit. You all accuse test scores of being biased? The concept of *privilege* is much more biased!

I have a friend. His dad is filthy rich. His dad's income is probably in the mid-to-high six figures. His dad built his own business from the ground up, but that's beside the point. My friend happens to be a white male, and under most criteria he would certainly fall into the category of "privileged" because of his dad's income. But my friend's dad is a hardass. He hasn't given my friend a damned thing besides food and shelter up to the age of 18. My friend works very hard; 16 hours a day, six days a week in a machine shop. My friend is smart (with the grades, test scores, and writing ability to prove it) and he wants to go to school. You would keep him out of college over a less-qualified candidate just because my friend's dad is wealthy? Without acknowledging the fact that my friend has been completely cut off from dad's money since he was 18?"

He's given him *nothing*? Even IF what you are saying is true, which I fucking doubt, I'm still assuming the great school your friend attended is not nothing. Oh, the school isnt great? Why, does your friends dad purposefully live in a broken school district to toughen his boy up? Is that part of this bull shit fantasy too? Is the food he gets purposefully sub par to fulfill your horseshit scenario where your poor rich friend is so disadvantaged. Give me a fucking break. I'm sorry you are persecuted so gunfighter, please forgive us.

That kid should emancipate.

"Why don't you prove the present continuation of racial discrimination against races which have been historically subject to discrimination on an institutional/political/policymaking/legal level."

I actually already did that (looking at forum replies) almost two years ago. It is quoted at the end of this message. I feel like that last bit is going to be an effort for you to get out by saying this is all informal racism, but, whatever. I know this is Huffington Post, but, here is a link I like (mostly because it is the first thing that came up in Google) because it links to a lot of different kinds of issues: economics, education, criminal justice, employment. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/02/civil-rights-act-anniversary-racism-charts_n_5521104.html

Let me ask one thing specifically, to understand what you're saying. The incarceration rate for racial minorities is several times that of whites. To my mind, there are three possible responses to this:
-it's pure luck, which seems very unlikely
-there is something inherent about racial minorities which predisposes them to crime, which is racist
-there is something outside of racial minorities which results in their being incarcerated more often than whites, which seems most obviously to be external racism.

I am going to be traveling in a couple of hours, but I worry this may not be a productive conversation anyway.

"""Are you guys genuinely arguing that there is no meaningful racism in America today? Since it was in the news, here is a link about the lawsuit against New York City's enormous racial disparity in stop-and-frisk arrests. It is the first link I could find that looks good; I am sure you can find some more. http://ccrjustice.org/floyd

Here is a video about racism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg

Here is a report about racism in health care:
http://academic.udayton.edu/health/07humanrights/wcar02.htm

Here is a poll about it.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/27/14740413-ap-poll-majority-harbor-prejudice-against-blacks?lite

Here is a funny Louis CK bit about being white.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY"""

So if you were to apply the same madness of the education system to the justice system, the solution is to let black criminals out early and add a few extra months to Asian prison terms?

Black Asians will naturally have really long prison terms, but only have to serve them at weekends.

Some hypotheticals:

Kid #1 grows up disadvantaged, starts from let's say 20th percentile in society. Kicks ass in school, lots of activities, good citizen, etc. Applies to college and is maybe the 90th percentile of applicants..

Kid #2 grows up privileged, starts from let's say 80th percentile in society. Kicks ass in school, lots of activities, good citizen, etc. Applies to college and is maybe the 92nd percentile of applicants.

Who do you let into school? Do you look at diversity at this point to give the kid who is on a much more high-achieving trajectory admission, or do you give the kid who is just slightly over-achieving the admission?

This is where intangibles come into play.

Let them both in. Drop the legacy kid who's in the top 40 percentile.

@ SantaClausowitz

Fuck you. My friend exists; that wasn't a hypothetical. No, he has not gone to college and is unlikely to (he's 22 years old) because of a lack of financial resources. His high school district was fairly average for my state (his dad's home is in a rural area, so it's neither a "rich" nor a "poor" school district by my state's standards)

My overarching point is that rich parents =/= an easy life in all cases. If rich parents equaled an easy life, then my friend wouldn't be pulling overtime for near-minimum wage in a machine shop. I am by no means defending rich kids as a group, but to suggest that it is fair to judge someone's privilege using their parents' income is laughable.

@ bo_sox48

"That kid should emancipate."

No need. He's 22 years old. I'm just saying that he has earned literally everything that he has, aside from food, clothing, and shelter up to the age of 18.

@ ckroberts

Hold that thought. I'll address your points later today. It *will* be a productive debate, I assure you.

Maher, I agree, but since there are so few legacy kids compared with the number of deserving other kids, that would necessitate more money being put into higher education. In California and across the U.S., the trend is generally in the opposite direction. This link shows a number of charts comparing California corrections (prisons) funding versus higher education funding. Notice that some of the charts correct for inflation while others do not. It's more interesting and more complex than I thought it was.

http://cacs.org/research/winners-and-losers-corrections-and-higher-education-in-california/

I know a woman who was kicked out of her home at 18 years old. Her birthday was shortly after high school graduation. Her Dad was a self-made construction contractor. She lived in a decent neighborhood in a decent school district. Her graduation gift was one month's rent and that was it. Getting kicked out wasn't a surprise (she had been prepared for it for years), but that was how their family did it. It's fairly common.

She never went to college either, but when I met her, she had worked her way into the non-profit world in high-end donor retention and was making six figures. She wasn't the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but she leveraged her exceptional people skills into a great career.