I'll just copy/paste what I wrote on chat just now

I was practically crying for help the entire game and not a single person helped me out. Nobody offered me support or anything.

I started off by offering an alliance with Germany - so he stabs me. I spend years waiting for England to tap Holland and break my deadlock with Germany, but it never happened. I go to help Italy against Russia and push him back in the Med - he thinks I'm stabbing him and turtles AND then proceeds to take Tunis from me. I try to make peace with Germany to get him to realize that Russia is the real threat - he pushes his advantage and tosses Russia the solo.

We could have extended this game had you moved Baltic to Gulf of Bothnia, Germany. That's all you had to do.
/end rant.

Good game Lando, you deserved the win.

Although, I have to share some of the blame for the solo. Had I moved to Tuscany in Fall 1912, Rome would have never fallen and we would still have a shot at stopping him.

This is essentially the problem I have with gunboat (yes, I'm being a whiner here...)

There's a slight disadvantage when drawing Austria in standard Diplomacy. But there's a huge disadvantage in gunboat, because you're only defense in the naturally vulnerable position, strong press and well-worded alliances, is gone. A lepanto is awfully hard to manage, and I was at the mercy of an attack by the Italian. Unfortunately, I had no choice but to accept Lando's 'help'.

As soon as I saw that I'd drawn Austria, I figured I was facing a defeat. But for that defeat to come to a gunboater in what was supposed to be a non-gunboater game is awfully irritating. That'll be my last.

Honestly though, it shouldn't matter if we lost to a gunboater. What advantage exactly did Lando have over us? (Besides being Russia). He couldn't communicate any better than the rest of us (since we're all n00bs), so that leaves what, tactics? Gunboaters are not inherently better at tactics than non-gunboat players.

Hey, I've never thrown a solo and ridicule those who even threaten to do so in a press game (ahem ... Lando ...). I didn't "stab" you, I attacked you ;-) I was friendly with Russia and England and Austria was moving south, so I had to chose an enemy.

Being friendly with England and Russia to start, I knew one of three would attack one of the others. So England attacked Russia and o chose my sides )to the eventual detriment of everyone but Russia ... But how was I supposed to know that 4 years in advance without MM telling me I was wast thinking clearly?) I've gotta say me and Russia had a few coordinations of the type that I gotta think lead to cheating accusations. It was like he could read my mind ... Which is obviously a skill that comes from experience ... But at the time, I honestly thought Russia was MM, because England had voted an early draw and I didn't think MM would do that. So I was thinking that it was cool that a complex GB noobs were able to think the same. Now that I know it was Lando, its clear that it was just his inate GB psychic abilities.

So I'm attacking France because that was my original direction, now I'm after England because I chose Russia over him, and me and Russia are growing almost evenly. At 10 for me and 12 for him, I think it could still be a race.

Autumn 07 I move to skag to help him in Norway, but I end up blocking his retreat ... I'm hoping he doesn't take it the wrong way. I end up getting north, Norway and EC, And I'm thinking I'm on my way, but France and England just keep pushing me back. I've stalled. With Russia in pie, and me in burg, I hit mars several times in a row hoping Russia beta the hint. I thought at the time that he wasn't getting it, but in hindsight, knowing it was Lando, I have no doubt that he got it and was glad to see me stalled there. He also kept France an extra SC in Syria even though France disbanded there. I'm now convinced that was also part of his plan.

Autumn 11 I vacate Brest, try to vacate Paris and leave the north sea showing a full commitment to a solo stop after seeing that Russia would end up with 14 that year and I would only have 10. I also pit in my draw vote at that time to show my intentions of trying for the stalemate. I'm relieved by the French fleet build in mars, because I know he gets it. I'm not sure England does yet though so I leave north to him. I find out after the turn that he did get it and tried to support me to north, bit I dint move there. So next turn I try but so does he! We just couldn't get the psychic GB thing down. So France takes Paris and I have two disbands. I disband my Belgium fleet so that England knows he has the move north. By this time, Russia is to far ahead though. And its just a matter of time.

Obvious Autocorrects should be forgiven

Syria = smyrna
Complex = couple of
Beta = gets

Etc.

I still am kicking myself for not moving to Tuscany

But honestly philcore I thought you would have gotten the importance of Russia leaving Smyrna open. He wanted me to remain as a wall to you in the West.

And why did you keep attacking when I moved all of my units away? That was my signal to say "hey, I think this fighting is stupid, we both have bigger issues". Maybe if I hadn't done that, your units would have been closer to home to protect Norway. Just thinking on where I could have improved the communication.

Also, just a quick note. Did you notice my support to Belgium in fall 1901? I wanted to Sealion and thought my moves to EC coupled with the support to Belgium AND the fleet build would have given that message.

Unfortunately, you've always got to pick one enemy and try to remain friendly with the rest of your neighbors. My mistake in previous gunboats, is just to go gung ho against someone and hope that the rest of my neighbors support my decision. This has never worked :-( I'm usually one of the first out because of this tactic. This time I played it conservatively and just waited a few turns to see what was what. Unfortunately for you, I decided that I was friendly with 3 of my neighbors and needed to attack you to grow. It wasn't anything you did wrong signal-wise, it was just that the best position to be in at the start is all friendly neighbors except the one that you decide to go after.

As far as the sealion, I have a hard enough time coordinating a 2 power alliance with no press, trying for a 3 power, like a sealion, wouldnt even enter my mind. I honestly never even considered that a triple would be attempted in a GB.

I hate gunboat. A lot. Makes sense to me that my comments about this game be equally hateful! ;-)

First off, why the hell is Lando in this game? This game is for people that hate gunboat, and haven't played much, if you've played several HUNDRED gunboat games, bugger off. It's like a 7'-0" tall person playing in a 6'-0" and under basketball league. What are you trying to prove? Why ruin everyone else's fun?

I thought it was "rude" (trying to pick a less hateful word here) for Lando to be allowed into this game. I thought it was rude for Lando to want to play and I thought it was rude for Lando to actually join.

As far as the game, I'm sure Lando submitted some decent orders here and there, but that had very little to do with him winning, to the point of being statistical meaningless. This game was about people not knowing what they are doing playing, it was bound to be about six people losing rather than one person winning, and it would have been *much* more interesting (and worthwhile, which is important, since we all signed up for this in order to suffer) to see which person playing poorly would fall ass backwards into a solo, or more likely a large draw.

I do enjoy flicking Lando shit. I don't hate that.

As far as the game, goldy, I know I only needed to cut one support to help you out, but my understanding of gunboat is that you must be a self-absorbed ass and pretend to be ignorant of your ally's needs while actually intentionally screwing them over, not wanting them to grow more than you so they don't come after you soon. Sure, there is some skill in exactly how self-absorbed you should be, and when, something I clearly don't understand, as my nature is to respect others and work with people rather than only think about myself 100% of the time, but I digress.

I thought the German's play was awful, and that he gave Russia the solo. Sure, us six losers all did things wrong, that was the point of the game, but the German's poor play went beyond gunboat. Come on, man!! :-P

Yeah, I hate gunboat. Probably because I am *HEAVILY* dependent on press, and the fact that I'm not good at gunboater, for me it will always be the red-headed bastard step-child of the real game. That said, I'd probably try it again with six people that actually meet the criteria of hating gunboat and have played less than 10 (or even less than 500) gunboat games... But then again, maybe not!

If you promise to cut Holland's support I'll play with you again MM

And me, knowing nothing of gunboat, tried the whole game *not* to be a self-absorbed ass, but to play it like I would play any other game.

Didn't serve me well, but I still prefer my approach

Thanks for the game everyone, I hope you all enjoyed it. I had fun out there. Thanks a lot to Charlie for setting it up and personally inviting me to play as well.

This game I got lucky, a lot of things really fell into my lap. I'll type up a more proper EOG later.

In my EOG I will also address why I believe MadMarx to be the poorest sport on the website and one of the most unpleasant people I have encountered. Obviously he doesn't like gunboat because his meta-gaming strategies no longer work.

Goldy, not positive which part you're talking about but the time I took Tunis was because I simply thought that a) I needed the unit more than you being closer to Russia and b) Germany could use the upper hand. If he's going to be stubborn enough to keep attacking you he better be able to do it swiftly enough to also defend against Russia.

May have been a misstep. Not sure.

Blame: philcore, Goldfinger, MadMarx, yoni, theHamster, MKECharlie.

Also, the best strategy for Austria in a gunboat is to suicide kamikaze charge into Russia. That way Russia also loses whenever someone draws Austria.

That is very incorrect, tendmote.

Just admit you were in the wrong Lando by going solo, it should have been a group result but you went out on a limb again, just apologize to everyone and this whole game can be forgotten and we can all move on

I should have hired tendmote as my gunboat coach for this game lol. I sure got trounced

You probably did need it more than me, Yonni, but I think that had you moved east instead of killing a turn taking Tunis we could have held Russia back there longer. Tunis was the unit I was going to destroy anyways, so you could have taken it with one unit the following year instead of two that year.

Had you moved to Aegean and Ionian instead, Piedmont would have been used to defend Venice, my army in Smyrna wouldn't have been destroyed, and we would've had Russia in a very uncomfortable situation in Greece and Con. But, I'm also thankful that you did what you did, because Germany would have overrun me had you not built that army

OK, so I'll make my contributions to this thread:

The game all went really well for me, every thing that could have gone in my favour seemed to have. It all began in 1901 - I was able to get into the BLS due to Turkey's opening and Italy moved on Austria neutralizing that threat. I understood Turkey's intentions were to signal allegiance to me, however, I had been given great position and it would have been silly for me to do anythign other than to try and take advantage. Meanwhile, as Italy opened against Austria I new that Austria had other things on mind than moving on me, so I played up that relationship.

I was also blessed with Germany's favour in 1901, which allowed me to get a substantial hold on the board.

Now, I was not happy to be given Russia in this game. Russia is traditionally the weakest gunboat power, however, we all know there is major benefit to Russia as well in that it can build on both sides of the major stalemate lines. So, A russia who survives the early stages has a good chance of success. In this game, that happened (as noted above) so I knew my chances were great.

As the game went on I got into Italy which was huge. I thought I had it all sealed up then. However, France showed some real good smarts and moved to disband both of my front line fleets. I thought this would crush me.

I knew I needed to stab Austria to keep mymomentum. I did and it worked. I also knew that I was reliant on germany remaining friendly to keep my chances. This also happened. I think at this stage (1909) was when Germany needed to make his move. Instead, he kept after France and it allowed France to disband in SMY, making things easier for me. I also knew that if I let France keep that centre he would make life difficult for Germany, which also worked out great.

At this point it was just about finishing up without making mistakes. I did make a few but ultimately I managed to play things well enough to finish the game.

I would like to comment on MadMarx's statements in this thread. He has accused me of being unsporstmanlike by joining this game. He has stated that it was rude of me. However, when I got a PM from Charlie saying he was starting a GB game and wanted me to join, would it not have been rude to decline? CHarlie and I have a really good history on this website (and I am sad this game ended with him being the first defeat - although the consolation is that we didn't give him his first survive). We have spoken lots about gunboat and he clearly wanted me in this game. If you were going to have problem with it, I am surprised you were willing to play to begin with. I am surprised you are willing to complain now about something you volunteered for. I am also surprised you play yourself down so much, the last time you and I played a gunboat game together you solo'd. So, I think you undervaluing your own ability is unfair. I do understand why you are doing it though, it's part of your ongoing overarching strategy.

Wow, disappointed in the bitterness displayed by MM on this one. Not that bitterness is unexpected in this game, perhaps I just hold you to a higher standard?

Lando was asked to play by Charlie and made it clear in the originating thread, so no need to slam him for playing.

And was my play really "awful" or did I just not turn when I should have? Clearly Lando's solo is largely my fault for being too optimistic thinking that I could keep pace with him, but other than not realizing it a few turns earlier when I might have made a difference, I think that my tactics were sound. I had one clear ally, and one clear enemy and played nice with the rest of my neighbors. Is that not the secret to success?

Specific critiques welcome, I can take it. And I certainly value your opinions on the game more than anyone else here.

I thought you would turn after he spared Smyrna and didn't support you into Marseilles. That's probably when you should have turned. I wouldn't say your play was awful, though I'm a bit confused by the one clear ally and one clear enemy part. From 1904 on, you really had two enemies and one ally. We did have a brief truce in 1906-1907 though, and I was wondering why you didn't press on me then or what made you break said truce.

First of all, being a GB, it wasn't a "said truce" but an "implied truce" don't go getting us banned gf, Jmo is on a rampage of late ;-)
Second ... Well there is no seconid. Let me check the game again and see if I can remember what I was thinking then ...

But what about the PM's we shared, philcore? You definitely said it...

Ok, I see the the (implied truce) you spoke of. I took burg, but it wasn't a center so it was only a half stab (just the tip), then you SH burg trying to how your intentions. But them you double tapped burg a couple of times, and while I should have realized that you could have taken it if you had supported instead of double tapped it, I just thought you were being dumb, not trying to send me a message. Considering the caliber of players in this game (myself excluded) I should have realized you weren't being dumb, but trying to tell me something. O missed that ... My bad. But I was preoccupied in the north trying to help my friends the Russians (tricky bastard!) While also having delusions of a solo possibility myself. I was gaining some ground, after all. So I interpreted your double taps of burg as hostile, rather than - in hindsight - I could take this if I wanted to, and I'm trying to show you that I don't want to.

You ever introduce 2 people who you really like to each other and then are surprised when they don't get along?

Anyway, thanks, all of you, for playing with me. I took over a game recently as a favor to GF, and played poorly, partly because I wasn't in it from the beginning, and I just got a hankering for another game, but didn't really have the time, hence gunboat.

For the record, I agree with MM that it's a pretty stupid variant, and my game is heavily dependent on me being a charming bastard. I also agree with Lando that MM was a poor sport, but I did kind of strong-arm MM into playing, too, so…

ANYWAY, thanks all of you. It was frustrating to not be able to pull off a gunboat black sea exchange, but also pretty satisfying to be eliminated first (I didn't have the patience to keep up with it for so long).

Also, as Lando points out, at least I'm still at zero survives!

@gf woah! No need telling people about our pms! they might think we were skirting the time-honored GB rules! I don't think you know about the mods 'round here. They are Roscoe P Coltrain ruthless! They'll ban you for posting a Disney cartoon! Keep our private communication on the D/L and watchout for usrs with a checkerboard next to their names ... Rookie!

So, tldr; fuck gunboat?

Oh shit, you're right philcore. Sorry. Let's hope no stupid fuckers with checkerboards come onto this thread and find us out.

And yeah, I didn't know how you would take the double taps of Burgundy. I wanted to communicate "I would really like it if you left this place" but I didn't know exactly how to communicate it.

@mods that last message was supposed to be a pm, not a forum post. If you silence or ban me or gf, I will sue/rape/murder/mock you incessantly/whine/cry like a baby/beg to be silenced/beg to have my self-imposed silence lifted/ask politely for a cheeseburger today which I will gladly pay you on Friday for/ appeal to Kestas until you reconsider such ban / silencing

On the bright side, at least there is an EOG thread in the forum. That is rare these days.

Your welcome ;+)

First off, early in the initial thread to organize this game, MKECharlie stated:

"Full-press vs. gunboat flamewars are encouraged."

When I make statements about gunboaters being selfish asses, or whatever, that's just me poking fun at gunboaters, since I don't like gunboat. Lando is the gunboater of the group, so poking fun at him is my flamewar for this EoG thread.

As far as this game, I threw my hat in the ring when I thought it was about gunboat haters that don't play much, in fact I wasn't sure I'd qualify even though I've played less than 10 gunboats, so I certainly didn't expect Lando to qualify to play a bunch of us gunboat n00bs. When I found out, I made an effort to bow out, however unsuccessful.

As far as this specific game, it was that bad, in all honesty. All my negativity about the Getman's play was 100% about not turning around to face Russia sooner. That kind of thing is frustrating in gunboat, as it's typically extremely easy to prevent in a press game, which is part of the reason I dislike gunboats, it seems to me to mostly be about getting solos easily.

As far as disappointing philcore, perhaps I'm just a bit jaded... For years I've been destined to "disappoint" pretty much every person I come across on this site, since I cannot live up to preconceived notions, so sometimes it seems like a good idea to get the disappointing over quickly and unmistakably. Sorry for that, I should try harder, but in my defense I did just finish playing a gunboat game and there's nothing I hate more than a survive, I had hoped to keep my total survives to single digits a bit longer, so I lashed out a bit in the spirit of a gunboat flamewar.

Thanks for allowing me to play, MKECharlie, I was extremely excited about the gunboat game for gunboat haters, maybe we can actually do that sometime, though no need to rush that!

I meant this game *wasn't* that bad

philcore wrote in some phallic thread: "Charlie, you're not allowed to post on the forum until you give an EOG on your own GB game!"

Anyway, not sure if we cross-posted, a few thoughts:

• I was hoping for flamewars about variants, not players
• MM, I'll be happy to play in a GB game with GB noobs, but I'm done setting such things up (I hate gunboat).
• Lando was invited because he impressed me a lot in gameID=50247 (this was before I found out he was a filthy gunboater).

On Gunboat in general, and Lando in particular: I typically hate playing real games with gunboaters, because in general they have no idea how to communicate with other people. Lando is one of the few who does both well.

As I wrote in the post-game press, I was hoping in 1901 that Lando was Russia, because we could've done the same sweet opening we did back in that game when the roles were reversed. Sadly, we couldn't talk about it, so my superpowers of woo were rendered useless.

Charlie - I actually thought about that at the time. Had Italy opened differently, I think we very well might have ;-)

When I have time/motivation for another serious press game on this website, you will always been one of the first on my PM list.