bo_sox....in your *typical* cowardly manner, you have come back to reply with insults and diversions, instead of addressing to post. So when will you be packing you bags?

And...my "agreeing with you" was on a minor point in which YOU were agreeing with me. Wow...let me guess...you distinctly fall within the "low information voter" pool, don't you? Your reading comprehension is distinctly below average, and your ability to construct a logical argument pales by comparison to, say, a 6 year old.

Classic krellin… if you are one that actually thinks test scores stand for something, I think we should compare mine to a six year old.

Ahh....the oh-so-brave bo_sox FINALLY steps up to a challenge. His choice of posts to directly respond to? You want to go head-to-head with a six year old in an IQ test. My, what a brave soul you are! Of course...you have now automatically FAILED, seeing as you have displayed your complete inability to detect hyperbole in an insult.

Moron.

@bo_sox - So you want the *benefits* of a college educationf rom this country where colleges receive tax payers dollars, blood money as it were. You are just as much a hypocrite as Putin then. As soon as you turn 18, you shouldleave, as krellin says. Go to China or Russia or North Korea Bow down before your communist overlords and serve them like the little bitch slave you are.

Krellin, I'm just a tad more civil about taking insults than you are.

Draug, that's the plan. North Korea's not on the list… I feel as if immigration is a little bit limited there.

bo_sox...there isn't a civil thing about you. You just don't have the mental capacity to stand toe-to-toe...but you attempt to throw your insult often enough.

As for your "plans"...again, when you hit 18, GO! Don't be a chump and risk being brainwashed by our government-sponsored US university system.

But again...I seriously question your commitment - I keep seeing you using your computer which is the direct result of the corrupt American capitalist system, and the fossil fuels you are burning to shit around and indulge your personal whims...you are really quite repulsive...no good commie is gonna want you with these vile western habits you have!!

God...I surely fear for this country's future if the US education system is turning out mental deficients like you.

No, let him be brainwashed. Then he will realize just what a hypocrite he is, taking government funded schooling from the big bad evil of the west.

Me? Brainwashed? I'm a genius compared to the Kyle Kacal's and Richard Mourdock's of the world. And they are our leaders!

"There is not one instance that I can recall where you have ever said anything favorable about the US (not saying you haven't - just none I can recall)"

Probably because you have a very selective memory and you need to concoct this anti-American narrative which makes facts inconvenient for you.

"There is not one instance that I can recall where you have ever said anything favorable about the US (not saying you haven't - just none I can recall)"

The problem has always been capitalism, not America. In some areas America has been progressive, like when it pressured the British, the French, and the Dutch to give up their colonies at the end of WWII.

"Therefore, given that there is not good thing about the United States, I'm *truly* baffled as to why you would want to stay here."

Because the working class of America are people too. This is my home, I want it to be a force for good, not for evil. Why do you stay in America when Obama is President, even though you think he is incompetent and his policies horrible? Enough said.

"Ohhh...wait...I think I know. Because you are a hypocrite."

Oh wait, it's your stock answer to everything. You have become a parody of yourself - a noun, a verb, and some derivative of the word hypocrite. You's be overjoyed if everybody left of Atilla the Hun emigrated, leaving suburban rednecks like you the whole country to do with what you will. I won't give you the satisfaction.

"Why do you stay in America when Obama is President, even though you think he is incompetent and his policies horrible? Enough said. " Moron. Because he is my duly elected President, because I don't despise my nation for electing him. Because I believe in our system.

You're equivocating on America, pretending you "only" dislike the Capitalism...is bullshit. You think the US government is decietful and evil, and you believe that they foster conflict around the world, that they are imperialistic.

This sudden moderation on your behalf is a *complete* lie, Putin. The only reason you have suddenly discovered such moderation is because you've been nailed to the wall as a fucking raging HYPOCRITE.

As for all the working class people of America...oh, you mean like ME, like 99% of all the conservatives out there as well? This ridiculous implication that most "working men in America" agree with you is absurd. I'll let you spew your anti-American venom to the UAW workers that live on either side of me, good Obama voters both of them, and they'd probably (quite literally) pound you ass in to the ground - because they actually love this country and would find 99% of your rhetoric offensive. These are flag waving loyalists, liberal to the core, good decent people...and they would *despise* you.

Hypocrite is not a stock answer - it's a factual observation, moron. You DAILY reap the personal and financial benefits of an economic system you claim to hate. At the very least, you should shed yourself of *any* excess wealth. You're a raging hypocrite, Putin. It isnt' ad attack, it isnt' a "stock answer"...it's simply a fact.

And the fact that I am forced to make this observation so frequently on this site is a sad reflection of how inconsistent the stated philosophies of so many is.

Yeah bo...a local state rep and a single Texas senator represent our collective leaders and the nation as a whole. Sure...

God, you truly are a moron.

Happy Xmas Krellin you little sweetheart x

Happy Pagan Ritual Day to you as well.

What personal and financial benefits am I receiving again? Seems like you're projecting your cushy suburban lifestyle on me. I have mountains of debt and get paid barely above minimum wage. You've tried this 100 times and it always fails. Your next tact will be to claim I'm a loser working class "moron" who can't find a good job, like you've done before.

I enjoy how now you're suddenly working class when before you were making fun of working class people for not having the cushy worthless job that you have.

Also don't pretend like you know anything about trade unionists. You probably have to drive a half hour to the nearest union hall, poseur. I was brought up in a union household and have volunteered for the Teamsters in Chicago. GFY.

"Moron. Because he is my duly elected President, because I don't despise my nation for electing him. Because I believe in our system."

Sure you do. That's why your party is out there claiming he's a secret Kenyan Muslim who wasn't legitimately elected. Get real.

my party is our there claiing he's a secret Kenyan Muslim who wasn't ligitemately elected? MY PARTY is saying this? Huh....what world do you live in? There are some raving loons out there saying that...but noone serious, noone worth paying attention to. By the same token, there are raving loon Democrats that claim Bush planned 911..doyou buy in to that?

If you want to have a real discussion, Putin, stop being such a jackass.

Define worknig class for me, Putin? I have debt just like you. I've worked in a factory in my youth, I've worked retail, I've worked construction. I've also educated myself and worked in engineering and now business. See...that's how it's supposed to work...you set goals and advance yourself ON YOUR OWN MERITS.

I couldn't really give a shit about where a local union hall is because I'm not in one and have no desire to be in one - I negotiate my own best wage and work my own deals, and I work or get fired based upon my own merits.

But I know what union labor is, I sit on the porch with my union neighbors...I'm really not sure who you think I am Putin, but you are a *far* cry from reality.

As for you...with your mountains of debt, etc...well, in your commnuist paradise you wouldn't have any debt...you also wouldn't have any luxuries, including easy access to your precious internet and your ability to freely trash your government.

What personal benefits do you recieve? Freedom, for one, but how about this - despite your mountains of debt (pure hyperbole, by the way...I call bullshit...everyone has debt, it's the American capitalis tway...lol) you eat three squares a day, and no doubt snacks and your choice of adult beverages to boot. You have cable TV (if you want it...and I'm sure you do) and open access to whatever entertainment you choose. You can travel when and where you please...

You'r so full of shit it isnt' even funny, you fucking hypocrite.

@ Krellin

Don't want to wade in on this argument too much and tbh this forum business seems overly heated, so I'll probs leave it after this. Just want to say I feel as if your political philosophy is a bit off. The idea of people doing well or badly on their own as being just ("ON YOUR OWN MERITS") seems misguided. 2 reasons. 1. Because free will does not actually exist. All our actions are caused by matters outside of ourselves: our genes and our environment. We may affect out environment, but only in a reactive sense. We are the product of a causal chain of events we do not have power over. So moral responsibility breaks down seeing as we do not actually have power over out actions and that's what your moral philosophy is predicated on. 2. (And I would say more importantly) It seems to me that utilitarianism is the best moral philosophy. If I make a million a year and am forced to give it a way to greatly improve the lives of many to me that seems like a good act. Even saying point one does not apply, though it does, I would say there are two main pros for utilitarianism. 1. we want a consequentialist moral code, so actions are good or bad depending on how they affect humans. If we have some rule to fulfill (deontological ethical standards), but it does not actually affect humans we are just fulfilling a rule and what good is it doing? I'll use your moral philosophy: so, you get what you work for and if people were unhappy in this world this could be undesirable, but ultimately a better state of affairs than people becoming happy by taking from the rich to give to the poor (gross simplification) because it does not fit the rule. So you would rather satisfy the rule than humans' well fair? That is the implication. 2. If we have a consequentialist moral code then utilitarianism (something benign) is the way to go as maximising happiness (read positive emotional reactions) are, rather tautologiously, what make people happy. I think that's a little garbled and certainly hurried. I'd appreciate a reply. Preferable something civil. Thanks

"my party is our there claiing he's a secret Kenyan Muslim who wasn't ligitemately elected? MY PARTY is saying this? Huh....what world do you live in? There are some raving loons out there saying that...but noone serious, noone worth paying attention to."

Yes, your party. Your party seriously embraced birtherism. The leadership of the party seriously embraced birtherism. Nobody in the mainstream of the Democratic party, or even on the fringe, said anything about Bush being responsible for 9-11. Next.

"If you want to have a real discussion, Putin, stop being such a jackass.
"

I have yet to see you participate in a 'real' discussion of any kind. It's nothing but personal attacks from you, and obligatory HYPOCRITE. MORON. HYPOCRITE. shouting from you. You' act like a four year old.

"See...that's how it's supposed to work...you set goals and advance yourself ON YOUR OWN MERITS. "

On your own merits? You're barely literate and a raging racist and you're somehow a recruiter. That's proof positive this economic system of yours is utter shit.

"Define worknig class for me, Putin? I have debt just like you. I've worked in a factory in my youth, I've worked retail, I've worked construction. I've also educated myself and worked in engineering and now business."

And this is revisionist history. In your last resume post, you claimed you got a good job right away. You notoriously made fun of everybody under the age of 30 for not having great jobs yet. You're changing your story as you go along.

Working class = people who must sell their labor power in order to live. They do not own the means of production. Nor are they supervisors, acting as agents on behalf of those who own the means of production.

" I'm not in one and have no desire to be in one - I negotiate my own best wage and work my own deals, and I work or get fired based upon my own merits."

Because people working together for their common interests in anathema. You're not a lover of America. You're a lover of power. You like to lick the boots of the bosses. If you were in a communist country you'd be the most fawning toadie & sycophant of the party bosses.

"you also wouldn't have any luxuries, including easy access to your precious internet and your ability to freely trash your government."

Eastern european countries have long surpassed the US in terms both internet speed and accessibility. Next.

As for 'freedom to trash my government', call me when the FBI stops hounding my comrades and hauling them before grand juries. Next.

"What personal benefits do you recieve? Freedom, for one, "

See above: You don't know what freedom is. Your idea of freedom is being able to buy high fructose corn syrup which costs .01 cent to make for $1.25. My idea of freedom is being who need liver transplants being able to get one, and people being able to send their kids to school without fear that they will get shot.

" You have cable TV"

Wow, your idea of freedom is being gouged for hundreds per month by cable companies. What a utopia.

If free will does not exist then NO philosophical argument has any merit, and NO political philosophy has any meaning. So you entire diatribe...I ignored it once I read this statement because you are a walking contradiction.

And because paying attention makes your brain hurt.

In other words, Demos, you didn't think what you wrote...it was simply the result of the molecules bumping in to one another in some predetermined order set in motion billions of years ago. You have no value as a human being, let alone a life form in general. You are a machine. ..but I forgive you your mistake...you can't help yourself.

It certainly is not the case that no philosophical argument has any merit if free will does not exist. How does metaphysics and logic lose meaning because free will does not exist. It does pose a problem for moral philosophy, though. That doesn't mean that these discussions have no merit. If you'd read on you would have seen that by undermining moral responsibilit I would vouch for utilitarianism as a better moral philosophy than yours. By the way even if it did lead to philosophical argument having no meaning, which it doesn't, why would then then invalidate the argument for free will not existing?

Krellin, prove that free will exists.

Eastern european countries have long surpassed the US in terms both internet speed and accessibility. Next.

HA HA HA HA HA! They wouldn't HAVE a fucking internet without the US. NEXT.

MY party....such a strange statement. I don't own a party. And if you are referring to the Republican party...perhaps you should stop doing so many drugs and reading left-wing blogs. Your version of reality is a fantasy.

I don't participate in dicussions...blah blah balh...OH...so this must be my first. Moron. I do this with you all the time. MORON. Maybe you do so many drugs you don't recall them...so I forgive you.

I don't know what you mean in regards to me claiming I got a good job right away. I have held every job I listed...I started working at age, probablhy 12 with a news paper route. I have done jobs NOT listed. I have worked my entire life since age 12...plenty of time to do all those jobs, idiot. AFTER I obtained my education, I DID get a good job...because I had an established WORK HISTORY and WORK ETHIC. This is something that is probably beyond your ability to grasp.

Workign together for a common interest....sigh...you are SUCH a moron. Yes...as an engineer, I did WHATEVER I felt like. I was not working towards a common goal...I just fucked around all day. And as a recruiter...you know, I don't give a shit what my client needs, or even my candidates...yeah...ONLY union members know what common intereests are. They define common interest as this: Take AS MUCH money as possible out of the company that they have invested ZERO risk in...make the Unions Bosses RICH beyond the labor's imagination...when teh company gets in tough financial times...squeeze them until they fail....Yeah, modern unions have a GREAT concept of common interests. In FACT, moron, they were originally started to address terrible WORKING conditions more so than wage issues, and it was Henry FORD, NOT UNIONS, that introduced a fair living wage. GET YOUR HISTORY STRAIGHT.

Anyway...by your definition, 99.9% of people are working class, including me. Thank you for staing the obvious. A boring and pointless waste of writing.

I'll stop there because you leftist pagans bore me with your inconsistencies and irrational thoughts.

Putin....you are singularly the MOST ill-informed, biased and hate-filled moron ever.

DEMOS....if your actions are dictated, your thoughts are not your own. Having a discussion is an illusion, particularly a philosophical discussion because it is impossible to actually persuade anyone of any idea...because ideas don't exist. They are illusory constructs.

I think you are probably some college kid who has been presented with this interesting concept that noone has free will, and yet you don't actually understand the ramifications of the concept. This discussion is pointless, because you are a walking contradiction. Go study the deep implications of your "philosphoy" and get back to be when you've dismissed it.

You're not working class. You're a leech on society. A beneficiary of affirmative action for mediocre white men.

Putin - If YOU are another moron that believes there is no free will, then you hatred of me is stupid and...shall I say it...hypocritical, as you must believe I have no choice but to behave the way I do. So...from henceforth on, Putin...shut the fuck up and leave me alone, because I am innocent of my behavior, having no choice in the matte.
God....what morons....

Yes Putin....I'm a leach...sure....whatever you say, big boy. Blah blah blah....Ohhhh...I feel so bad because the hate-filled Putin doesn't like me. Ohhhhhh noooo! What shall I do?

I know...I'll go to work...make more money than him and live my comfortable capitalist life sucking off losers like him. Ahhh....so much fun. It's good thin there are sooooo many poor people to suck the life out of, because you can only squeeze a little bit out of each....so Putty old boy...send your loser friends my way any time you want so I can grind them underfoor and spit on them, because apparently this "mediocre white man" is FAR superior to you....

God...if this "mediocre white man" is able to succeed so much beyond you, mr. communist white man...how pathetic must you be? A true loser....wow...

Keep it up....this is hilariously good shit!

Well your wrong on the attempt at deciding on my background, though that is irrelevant. OK lack of free will has huge ramifications I agree, but I still feel as if your previous bold claim of no philosophical argument having merit because of it is true. Ideas still exist just. I understand an idea to be, in its broadest sense, a mental concept. These still exist without free will just the manner in which they come about is different from hom we they would in a world with free will. An argument is sound if its premises are true and lead to its conclusions. Philosophy is based on arguments. These arguments are not made more true or false by free will's existence.

There's no other explanation for why wastes of space like you are employed while talented people are not. It must be your skin color.