what is the purpose of this?

To get us back for our Magnitsky Legislation thingy.

When i was in russia this year, there was a documentary on this, and they tend to do the same as our media. Lock onto the most extreme cases, and show that to the Russian public.

In Ukraine, many Orphanages are actually opened and operated by Americans who go there, marry Ukrainian girls, buy land there. It is not the case in Russia, as I dont think Americans or non Russians) can be land holders, except for corporations.

They are the same as our meida, shock and awe and ratings.

I also know, that the Russian Orphans turn out very poor usually. 91% substance abuse, prostitution in most cases, criminal activity, etc. Not sure why the Russians give a damn if Americans are adopting them, as if even 50% of them wre treated great, its a better life for more than it would be in Russia.

Who cares about the welfare of children when there's wounded national pride to sulk over? I imagine in 50 years when the Chinese or Indians are adopting impoverished abandoned American babies there will be the same 'outrage'.

I can believe those stats, Stressed. Probably close to a number of demographic stats in the USA for underprivileged-by-birth populations too.

Tolstoy, not sure what you're getting at. I care about children everywhere :D

Bo Sox, Russia is a much 'harder' place than America, by a lot. They are very kind and caring to family and close friends, but otherwise they are a brutal people to one another.

I never have problems, because they dare not want to cause problems with Americans (especially in the city I usually go to, they never ever see Americans, so they are usually so curious), and usualyl have 200 questions, like to see what you like to eat/drink, etc, what clothes you are wearing, your opinion on some things.

However, they do that adoption thing the same way Americans do, and here, Adoption is restricted to upper middle class or higher families, since we have strict rules on income levels for adopting children.

The Orphan issue in FSU nations *(Former Soviet Union) generally leads back to the gender gap issue, where there are a lot more women than men, and the men basically pcik and choose who is fucking who (for the most part)

A very attractive (an 8 out 10) , well educated woman who is not married by the age of 25, her chances go down fast, because there in their culture, being married and having a child holds the most status for them, and the men, if they MUST marry, want young women usually.

A career woman is a career woman because she cant find a husband. No other reason. Very few of their women when 18 say "I want to be a big corporate woman"

Also, the pay differences between genders are rather big for the same jobs, and the job of 'administrative assitance' often involves her boss banging her when he feels like it.

And if a Russian woman finds out her hubby is cheating? They usually turn a blind eye to it, because for them "its better to have a man who is cheating, than no man at all"

Of course, the Russian women who hold firm to wanting a 'nice man' who wont cheat, drink all the time, beat her, etc, well, they end up marrying western men usually, because such a man is difficult to find in her country.

Wow...much ado about nothing. If you want to adopt, try taking one of the many American children that needs a good home, or maybe become a foster parent.

Yes...I know...the American system needs to be fixed because it's too difficult to navigate, etc....but traveling to Russia to snatch your baby *is* a little demented.

Krellin, I know plenty of people adopted from Russia. Parents often think they need it more, which may or may not be true. I don't know the first thing about it other than that there are a lot of them so I'd watch who you say that to.

Stressed, I know Russia is different than America. It's a different culture; so is anywhere else outside the country (for the most part). I'm not sure how they are or act, and personally, I've never had any inclination to visit Russia, but I don't think a "culturalization" aspect of their nation is a bad thing. I know you aren't saying that, but I could easily ascribe it that way.

It is fascinating to see what the New Soviet Man looks like after the chains and brainwashing are removed. Thanks for the insight, Stressed.

BO sOXC, they are a downright violent people compared to us.

Example, walking down the street, two men will start fighting, and for no reason that I can ever figure out. Here, people would watch. There, it is so common to see it, people just try to avoid getting caught up in it, and walk by,without sparing a 2nd glance.

Another interesting thing. They have half the population of us, but over 10 xs the Domestic deaths (man beating wife to death, adn very often alcohol related) Cops just dont care, it just another dead woman, there is plenty to take her place.

Child support Men dont have to pay it......ever Some do, because eventhough the cultureis so awful in this regards, they have some sense of honor to them, and they pay something, or even take the child sometimes, msot dont even care to see the children.

Tolstoy, I assume Any culture, where men were outnumbered 5 to 4, hey would abuse the situation. Basically, it comes down to this if Girl A wont do this, he can find Girl B who will.

When I told 2 russian men how much I paid for child support to my first wife, they said "why pay, tell her to fuck off" lol I had a hard time explaining our laws, cuz there, they woudl simply pay the cops to make it go away.

bo_sox - it's not about whether or not you know adopted Russian babies. I know people that own small arsenals and yet you (or someone around here) probably want to takes their guns away. so clearly just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

If Americans feel they need to adopt a baby, there are plenty of children in need *right here* in this country that need a loving home. THAT is the point.

Bo Sox, i have the luxury of being able to travel to a lot more places than most Americans, and in places like Germany, Belgium, Italy etc...the cultural differences are not so large. Sure, some, but for the most part, there is not huge cultural divides between Western European nations, and since we were founded, and built upon immigrants from those countries, and have always had close ties with those nations, our cultural is not so far removed from theirs.

Eastern Europe is something alien to me, and I have lived in Korea for a few years, and enjoyed my time there a lot.

Middle East....i was not a happy man there at all. It was more alien than Russia was, and the people far less friendly and curious.

Australia Similar to Western Europe for me, in that the culture was not a big shock to me. SUre, some small differences, and even some BIG ones, but nothing that put the 'shock and awe in me'

thailand. In the tourist areas, it was fine, outside that, very different.

Phillipines. Did not like it, and most of the people I met spoke SOME English, so it was not a terrible place for me, but I just would not spend money to go there.

South America= dependson the nation I was most comfortable in Argentina, and in parts of Brazil. I was in neither for long though, but I enjoyed Argentina a lot, and I may say, outside Australia, some of the hottest women on the planet...lol

Krellin, it is difficult for Americans to adpot our own children. I know this, because Ilooked into it. It 'was' easier to adpot Russian/Ukrainian babies, and believe it or not a lot cheaper.

dang stressed makes Russia sound pretty good.

Stressed....sigh....yes, I already said this. I already acknowledge that our system needs to be changed. So the system here needs to be fixed insteadof having people pay...what? $10,000...$20,000...more? To steal a baby out of Russia? And god knows if those are even legit orphans or baby stolen or birthed jut for adoption. I don't know...Russia is a rather fucked up place, by my understanding.

Would you rather spend that money here, either working through the system or working to change the system, instead of letting American children rot in orphanages and...statistically speaking...fall in to crime and poverty?

haha, well, if you are a guy, it can be interesting...lol

I met my wife (she is russian) In munich Germany a while ago. She was a translator for a advertising firm or bank, I forget exactly. We were in a cafe type area, she speaks excellent English, but her German was....poor at best.

Anyways, the Waiter spoke good englihs, but they both had heavy accents, and she was trying to order something, and he could not understand what she wanted, so I told him in German what she was asking for, and she laughed and said ":thanks for translating my english into english".

We talked for about oh...11 hours that day, just sitting there, walking, having a good old time.

She shocked me, as she was VERy well educated, tall (5'11) attractive (not a knock out, but a solid 7/8) VERY intelligent, and a great sense of humor. We spent the better part of a week (until she had to go to russia) hanging out, and having a great time, but the part about her I liked the most, was that she had a lot of respect for herself. I remember the first time I kissed her she said after "dont think bad of me for kissing you" WOW...lol

I spent the next 2 years going to Russia, meeting her in Europe, etc. We finally got tired of meeting only 5 or 6 times a year and she said "I am not getting younger, so you need to decide if we are going to take this any further"

She had a lot to give up great job, owned several flats (apartments) great family (Father a doctor, mom an engineer) no siblings, but too much respect for herself in a country that has no respect for women. She grew up in the USSR, so she said "I am not a russian as much as I am a Soviet" it was a profound statement.

However, I regret nothing with her and visit Russia often to see her parents (they come here also) and we enjoy our life 100%

She said, sure there were some good parts of the USSR she misses, but Russiia will be better without communism, we just need time to figure it all out.

yes krellin, about 15,000 was the average.

$25,000 - $35,000 to adopt a Russian baby, according to this web site.

http://www.internationaladoptionhelp.com/international_adoption/international_adoption_russia_costs.htm

US Costs in article below (again, not sure how good a source)

http://www.babycenter.com/0_an-overview-of-adoption-costs_1341586.bc

US babies are cheaper, it would appear on a quick glance (which is all I did fro the moment)

I would also add that I know 3 families (one is my brother-in-law) that are foster parents and that seems much easier, and is a much needed thing.

Again...I think going to snatch babies from Russia because you don't want to deal with our system is demented...verging on wrong...just my opinion.

krellin, I made my own Russian babies (well half russian...lol) but, when I was looking into it was in the late 90s so i am sure the prices have changed.

I remember when I was looking into it here, my income level was not high enough and they dont have that problem here.

I made good money for Tennessee, but when our own System goes to work, they dont care where you live. 40,000 here, in the late 90s, but our system does not look at debt to income or anything like that.

stessed -- also, I want to say I don't mean to be judgemental if it comes off taht way. I can't know what it would be like to want to adopt, so I do understand that people will do what they must in that situation. I just think its a terrible shame that US children in need aren't first options for US citizens....so if I think it is "wrong" morally...it isn't necessariyl a moral judgement against the adopting parent as much as it is a moral judgement against our government.

Just wanted to be clear...trying to not be an asshole here...

basically krellin, a family making 150,000 but ni debt up to their eyeballs, was more qualified than someone making 40,000, but had no real debt.

Okay, so I learned something this thread… krellin is a nativist!

Other than that, I'm not paying attention to random spewing of stereotypes. I believe you, Stressed, but not by much.

stereotypes? not sure what you are talking about.

I don't know, Stressed, maybe just that the thing you said about street fights is an exact description of my experiences in Boston...

Haha.Ilived in south boston from ages 11 to 17 (off and on). I know what you mean but theirs is more violent than that. Maybe now its worse in southie but back then it was straight up fights sometimes a knife but afterwards the micks would go drink with each other.

it s certainly more common there bo sox. What part of boston?

Only place I've stayed for anything more than a few days is the Holiday Inn on Beacon Street, but there were fights there once or twice a day. It was unreal. Was in southie area once (that's Dorcester, right?) but only for three nights.

I'm a "nativist"? I don't even know what that means. what I am is an American that pays taxes and sees a lot of people right here around me that need help, including children in foster care that need homes and adoptive parents. So, I guess if I want to help the people around me before I fly half way around the world to help someone, I'm a nativist.

Are you not?

Let's form a parallel argument. I am assuming that you believe the police perform a certain function in our society that, for the most part, is with good intent. They "fight crime"...well, actually they rarely fight crime, but they do attempt to clean up the aftermath and hunt down the criminals.

there is crime in other countries around the world...especially third world nations. As a NON-Nativist -- assuming you are since you call me out as a nativist -- are you therefore proposing that we should police the world, and the same way by your implied criticism of me you think we should snatch babies from around the world for adoption and give no preferential treatment to suffering children in this country?

Or is that analogy too much of a stretch for you mind to grasp?

You really are an idiot, though. There has been no random spewing of stereotypes in this discussion...there has been a rundown of someone's personal observations. and funny...after critcising his "random spewing of stereotypes" you then move on to imply a very similar stereotype to Boston...making yourself, of course, look like a foolish hypocrite. Astounding.

the other hypocrisy, of course, if that if I were to make a general statement about Detroit, I would be jumped on like a two-bit hooker...<sigh...>

Lol… what, krellin, have you forgotten that you are one of many on this site that constantly maintain that we DO police around the world? Ever heard of international affairs - i.e wars? You're calling me a hypocrite? That's your argument, not mine.

And by the way, in your own words … "traveling to Russia to snatch your baby *is* a little demented." First of all, my inclination is to say that the baby comes here, and second of all, that - tied in with most everything else you said in those two posts - is xenophobic at best. Why is it so bad that an American chooses to adopt from another nation? It's a personal choice. You know, in the same way that a woman having a fetus scraped from her uterus is a personal choice, but I guess you invade on that choice too, so why am I even talking anymore...

Bosox. Dorchester is near 'southie' but it is not true 'southie' dorchester is a nicer area also. Southie used to be pure ghetto white trash for the most part. Can't assume its changed

Okay, then no, I haven't been there. Sounds like fun though…

Oh ya. Sure. Fun. Hookers. Drugs. Crime. Violence. Poverty. Its a real fucking ball

Russia is a very anti-gay and racist country, so there are some similarities.

"Russia is a very anti-gay and racist country, so there are some similarities."

A bizarrely racist country. I don't know if stories of neo-Nazi Russian groups or ne-Nazi Israeli groups confuse me more.

And you gotta admit, there's a kernel of a truth in what the thug Russian racists say. Russia's population growth is barely at replacement in a good year, and the non-ethnic Russian population is growing as a percentage of the whole. How weird is it that the nation that thundered across Eastern Europe not even a century ago may not have enough people to keep Siberia inhabited in a hundred more?


As for the banning of adoptions, I'd guess this is a play by Putin for domestic consumption. His anti-corruption drive is a little too successful, in that every exposure of crooked government makes him look bad. After all, these people made or were able to keep their ill-gotten gains in the TWELVE years he's already been running the country. A story like this about adoptions keeps corruption out of the headlines and puts Putin back in the role of defender of the Russian people's dignity.

bo_sox --- I'm not saying that we don't Police aroudn the world...but most on this site are opposed to such policing, and generally it is done for - let's be honest - OIL. If you want to *truly* start policing, then we are doing next to nothing to stem violence around the world, and you only have to look south to Mexico to prove the point.

So...no...I completely reject the notion that we "Police the world". That is political rhetoric and bears very little resemblance to reality. We fight wars for oil.

So...if you want to start caring for babies from across the globe by importing them to the US because foreign babies need love too, (and thus cause more of a burden on the US which must care for it's own homeless children), then let's also police the world, starting with the invasion of Mexico...

I know that last post seemed to conflict with itself...let em clarify. Yes, we do *some* policing around the world now...it is targeted efforts at oil-bearing countries, primarily. Afghanistan is a fluke, though it is possible we have anterior motives in Afghanistan:

http://wonkette.com/415964/afghanistan-jackpot-its-filled-with-precious-metals

Yes - lousy source...it was the first link...but it's no secret Afghanistan has precious rare metals that we use in growing quantities in our electronics, etc.

Krellin, the last *war* we fought was World War II. That was the last time that Congress declared war on another nation. Iraq, Afghanistan, the Gulf War, Korea, Vietnam are all "authorized and/or funded by the UN or Congress." There was never a declaration of war. Since World War II, we have policed. Yes, we police around the world for oil, no kidding, but we do police around the world.

There are a select few non-oil endeavors that our troops are on, but not many. That much I can agree on.

And Afghanistan is resource-haven of pretty much anything but lumber, so yeah, it is a "fluke" without a doubt.

I really have no idea if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me...you seem to be agreeing...we don't police the world...we police the resources we seek, period. And thank god we do, otherwise you wouldn't be able to sit in your comfortable little house enjoying the ill-gotten gains of what you believe is a country built on vile wickedness, right bo_sox, my hypocritical friend? (You really should turn your computer off and go help a homeless person or something, as your computer is built in foreign countries at slave-labor rates of compensation, and powered by an energy source that was probably stripped from the lands of our enemies, and most certainly is destroying the planet. Every post you make proves your hypocrisy...you freely use this vile toy, even though everything about it - its existence in your house - violates your declared convictions).

The irrelevance and simple stupidity of the last 80% of that paragraph is laughable, krellin.

Annnd.....bo-sox-the-coward has once again ignored the post and gone on the attack, as he has no intellectual ability to respond. Bravo, my idiot friend (and I mean "idiot" in teh truest sense of the word...retarded, mental deficient...choose your own descriptor if you feel so inclined.)

If you *hate* the United States, stop living a cozy life of utilizing its benefits - the ill-gotten computer and energy which you would NOT HAVE were the US the country YOU wish it were. GIVE UP the vile comforts of this corrupt nation, coward!

Or...be an ignorant hypocrite and attack me, ignore your own convictions, as I know you will...and thus prove to all what a hypocrite you are.

Hey dummy...er....bo_sox...where does you computer come from? Who built it? Where does the energy come? Those magic holes in the wall? Tell me where the things you use for your comfortable living come from? Are they from US coroprations that oppress other countries and strip them of their natural resources (in your opinion)? If so...how can you live with yourself? How can you sit around and enjoy these pleasures knowing that it is only through the abusive, corrupt power of the US that companies ae able to enslave people to build our pleasure-devices? You're a vile little boy, bo_sox...

Just going back to the earlier statement that the Russians have it tougher than us. As a whole I agree with this but I'll take a guy coming out of the slums of New York or Missouri over someone coming out of the slums of Moscow any day just like I would take any of Americas nastiest gangs against the Russian Mob

You'll take them for what?

Texas, is that why russian gangs are running ours out of business in some places?

remember, most of these Russian gangs were ex special forces, not just some crude idiots with guns. These guys were trained killers.

They aren't urnning our gangs out of business. The Hells Angels still control the Meth market in Canada and California. The Mexican Mafia was voted, man for man, the deadliest gang on earth. Gangs like the Best Friends and Pheonix are trained assasins that can pull a hit any were on earth in a matter of hours. If I had to choose a gang coming after me I would choose the russians any day.

link please...lol

tEXAS, GO AHEAD. Voted by whom, you?