@Baum - I don't think I understand - are you stating that the believe is that the bread and wine are someone transformed into actual flesh and blood as they are ingested?

First off, despite my desire to keep out of theology debates, I gotta say this: YUCK

Second, that is something that is easily testable, but since presumably those that believe this will state that it's changed *back* into bread and wine if you get a scientist with a CSI kit within 100 feet, then it goes back into the 'faith' category, and hence is another example of something that is subject to faith and not logic.

I still don't see how the whole "God says you're screwed at birth" thing would conflict with "you're eating Jesus" thing. If God is going to let people into church, even if they're destined to fry no matter what, then I don't see why he wouldn't do the super magical transformation for everyone either. After all, if he *didn't*, it would be easy to find out who was going to heaven and who was going to hell, and those that were destined for hell anyway wouldn't have a real reason to bother going to church.

Granted the thesis isn't that God has damned you, it's that everyone is damned and God saves some people for his own mysterious reasons, but, seriously - if salvation is predetermined, then I'm not getting the point of going through the motions of prayer service. You're, what, thanking God for not letting you fry any earlier than you have to?