The media and health class do well enough teaching that, yet rape still exists. And if a rapist justifies rape, he/she is merely in denial. A person in denial is not going to listen to reason, so teaching that person would likewise be futile.

"bo_sox, If serial killers aren't even being given capital punishment, there is no reason for rapists to receive it."

I figured it was easy to tell that my police reference was sarcasm to the nth degree. I don't support the use of capital punishment under any circumstances simply because I have read and since participated in too many case studies where someone on death row was exonerated not because the evidence against them at the time of their trial, but because the evidence became flimsier as a) time passed, b) testimonies were altered, c) new evidence came out, and d) new techniques for acquiring better evidence came out. The reason people are being exonerated from death row and other sentences for crimes they didn't commit is because DNA, which is fairly new in the scope of criminal justice, is casting doubt on the original ruling. Supporting capital punishment is supporting the irreversibility of a court ruling and prohibiting progress in the forensic sciences - and doing so at a humongous expense to taxpayers.

"The patriarchy is a feminist invention-- no such societal structure exists."

Feminism has been around for a long time, and statistically speaking, it is quite plain that men have held more power in the scope of world history than women by a long shot. Feminism didn't start as a joke, it started because women realized that they weren't the inferior, sexual beings that they were made out to be by various collective European societies that valued women only so that they could create more men.

"As for catcalling, what is so wrong about catcalling?"

It's unwanted harassment. That's what's wrong with it. In the same way that you don't want solicitors going to your front door because it's annoying and you don't have any interest in them anyway, many women don't want to be catcalled because it's annoying and they don't have any interest in them anyway.

"As for throwing like a girl, it is a biological fact that, on average, women, due to producing estrogen instead of testosterone, do indeed have less external muscle."

There is a girl named Mone Davis who throws harder than I do (and she's like 14 or something ridiculous) and I got scouted by 7 MLB teams. She throws like a girl. Her girly throws are impressive as hell. When you say that someone throws like a girl, think of her, and maybe think of Jennie Finch too.

"I do agree that men should be allowed to express their feeling more freely."

Then we should discuss why men, particularly white men, are so much more apt to attempt suicide during their adolescence. Do you have a biological explanation for that too? And, by the way, it's a fairly prominent feminist issue, so if you blanketly disregard feminism, then you should probably blanketly disagree with me on this matter too.

"The media and health class do well enough teaching that"

Outside of educational media, the media isn't education. PBS and CNN aren't one in the same. I don't care what CNN has to say.

As for health class, I never took one. I don't know what they teach because my school district was too full of redneck fascists to think that things like art, foreign languages, any history course that even remotely discussed the worldwide indigenous genocides, or, ironically, sex eudcation was important to my wellbeing and that I should have the opportunity at the very least to take classes on those things in school if I chose to. I still don't see why the statistics on rape and domestic violence shouldn't be taught in the places that don't try to make you recite Christian prayers alongside the pledge every morning despite being public institutions. If you think they are taught "well enough," show me how, otherwise you're simply pulling a Chaqa and just stating your opinion without giving me anything to respond to.

"And if a rapist justifies rape, he/she is merely in denial."

I wish that were true.

Feminism did have a purpose when it first formed, but women in the developed world of today are not oppressed. https://youtu.be/iFpLpLjx7po

Catcalling is NOT harassment. A woman might not be interested in the catcaller, but she cannot deny his right to express his interest in her.

Liberals like to bring up anecdotal evidence of strong women. I specifically wrote that women have less exterior muscle ON AVERAGE. Of course there are exceptions, but the metaphor is based on a general trend.

Male teenagers commit suicide more often than women because of a mix of biological and social reasons. Biologically, they are more impulsive (testosterone). Socially, they aren't able to release negative emotions. And if you think that feminists care about male suicide, read http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/01/feminist-labour-mp-mocks-discussing-high-male-suicide-rates-parliament-plays-victim/ . I searched for feminists addressing the issue and simply couldn't find one. Feminists TODAY are privileged women who seek only to advance their own sex and shoot down any notion of creating men's rights groups.

Redneck is a racist term just like nigger, and you certainly don't know what a fascist is if you say that your school district is filled with them. As for rape education, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11457899/Children-as-young-as-11-to-be-given-lessons-about-rape.html . I challenge you to find a single person in the Western world that hasn't been taught that rape is wrong.

I find it odd how about 99% of all references to sexual assault in this thread were man on woman. Not to be the PC police, but in my personal experience, I have seen more girls assaulting or attempting to assault a guy then the other way around.

I did mention that, KingCyrus, but bo_sox failed to respond to it.

I quote myself, "Studies have shown that women are the perpetrators of the majority of domestic abuse cases. However, when men reveal the violence, they're laughed at and mocked, and their court cases are dismissed. This leads to victims being unwilling to report violence, creating underreporting far more severe that in rape cases."

bo_sox, if you think that male suicide is "a fairly prominent feminist issue", try this link: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=feminists+about+male+suicide

Catcalling is not respectful, it is harassment. You don't get to change that just by typing your opinion in caps. You most certainly don't get to call that harassment a right and remain unchallenged. Harassment is not a right.

"Catcalling is NOT harassment."

reminds me of an old louis c.k. joke.

"when you say to a friend of yours: "you're being an asshole."
and they're like: "no i'm not."
well, it's not up to you!"

@ Leon: "Men already know to respect women."

"Men know that harassment, rape, and assault are wrong"

Then how do we prevent harassment and rape? Your only solution so far is for the victims to make themselves harder to rape. What can we do about the raping, harassing men, who know they are doing something wrong but still do it? How are they to be stopped? Is "women should take precautions" really your only answer? Because if it is, it's a shit answer and it's nowhere near good enough.

Let me ask you something else, Leon:

1. Are you hetrosexual? Are you sexually attracted to women?

If the answer to 1 is "yes", then:


2. Are you so sexually attractive and charismatic yourself that you have never been turned down by a woman? Or, has there been at least one instance where you were attracted to a woman and she didn't feel the same way?

Assuming there has been at least one instance of you being rejected in that way:


3. How many rapes have you committed?

If the answer to 3 is "none", why is this? Did the women's knowledge of self-defence allow them to physically fend you off?


"Catcalling is NOT harassment."

Fuck off. Yes it is.

Sir Arthur Wellesley had great success in reducing the number of rapes carried out by victorious British soldiers in the Peninsula War by adopting a policy of hanging anyone found guilty. The sight of rapists swinging lifeless from ropes gave a very clear signal that the subversive culture of "to the victor the spoils" was no longer acceptable.

Rape is difficult to prove for obvious reasons. What you cannot do is lower the standard of proof as that makes a mockery of justice. What you can do is make an example of those found guilty to act as a real deterrent and underline society's refusal to tolerate it.

We also have to move away from the damaging idea that all rape is equal. It is evidently not, as should be obvious to anyone who has noticed the differences in definitions of rape amongst different Western nations.

Most damaging of all the conclusions of the rape is rape philosophy is that all rapists are the same. The sort of philosophy that has led to the ridiculous notion that vulnerable men and women should not take precautions. That so many people, including people on this site, promote such a harmful philosophy is distressing.

Octavious, just to be clear, your proposed solution is that rape should be punishable by death?

Personally I would be in favour of the death penalty for repeat offenders, yes. Sadly European treaties make that somewhat unlikely. Probably the same for chemical castration, more's the pity. But I'd settle for life imprisonment. For first time offences there may be the hope of rehabilitation as part of a lengthy gaol term.

Hm. Looooootta misconceptions to go through here. I hope y'all appreciate that I'm staying up basically all night to write this.

Saying women can take measures to protect themselves in the present culture is trivially obvious. Women know this better than you do. At the same time, it's simply wrong to make that the first and only line of defense against rape.

The line of defense that folks like leon1122 are probably most familiar with is deterrence through criminal punishment. He's right that people still rape despite the heavy sentences, but deterrence functions through *certainty* of punishment as well as severity, and the certainty of punishment for rape is absolute shit, for various reasons. So improving how the criminal justice system detects and handles rape is one important (albeit difficult) goal. (Re: Octavious' comment, this should *not* be about lowering the standards of justice to convict more people--but there are also ways that the standards of justice are lowered in ways that harm rape victims.)

Now, let's talk about education. Most of the commentary in this thread has taken the view that said education is all about rape and not raping, and must target either the depraved rapist or the rape victim who was "asking for it." Hence the objection to broad educational outreach as "seeing all men as rapists" or "blaming the victim." But that's an absurdly narrow and simplistic paradigm.

There *are* rapist rehabilitation programs, with varying degrees of success (which complicates the "rapists are just inherently irredeemably evil, so teaching them is futile" canard), but just as most people are not rapists, most people are not targeted by rapist rehabilitation programs. Meanwhile, it's possible to note that the hypothetical woman who walked alone through a dark alley at night with her tits out and got raped could have exercised better judgment, but she's also a miniscule corner case where rape is concerned--so not only is victim-blaming callous (said hypothetical woman still didn't *deserve* to be raped), it's also completely ignorant of most rape victims' experiences.

Finally, rape should not be viewed in isolation; it's the worst (or nearly the worst) outcome on a whole spectrum of unhealthy behaviors related to sex and intimate relationships. Most of those behaviors are not nearly as bad as rape--many of them aren't even illegal, so you can stuff your nonsense arguments about what people have *a right* to do, because that doesn't make it *right* to do--but the same educational efforts that target rape also frequently target other behaviors. (We can also talk about the variety within the set of behaviors that count as rape, but it's not immediately relevant here.)

So instead of viewing rape education as trying to prevent a male rapist brute from raping a scantily clad female rape victim, we could (for example) look at it in terms of *people* who might encounter or witness signs of danger or abuse in a relationship, and educate them on that basis. Critically, this involves third parties in the prevention of rape and abuse--bystander education is a thing, people! Preventing rape is not solely the job of the would-be rapist and rape victim; it's a group effort to construct community norms like "see something, say something." This is just one kind of education, there are plenty of others.

Ideally, and this may be just my inner wild optimist talking, reframing things in this way could also help us get past the stupid, divisive, pointless Oppression Olympics stuff about whether women are oppressed because more men rape, or whether men are oppressed because more women abuse their spouses, or whether feminists are privileged, or what-the-fuck-ever. Identity politics is sometimes a useful paradigm, but when it turns a discussion about *preventing rape and abuse* into a flame war between feminism and men's rights, it can fuck right off.

We're on the Internet, so I'm looking forward to a hundred misunderstandings, nitpicks, and insults. But I hope this helped at least one person break through the fog of talking points. And hey, I'm no expert--I just pay attention sometimes--so I'm down for more learnin' if I fucked up the explanation somewhere along the way, or forgot something important.

+1 Lethologica

That was a solid response.

Re catcalling: Watch https://youtu.be/bJX6owYq93k . Make sure to watch to the end.

@Jamiet I did not say taking precautions is the solution. It is just that-- a precaution. There is no end-all solution, but, as I have stated before, greater police presence and surveillance would help. Octavius's suggestion also has some merits.

1. Yes, I am heterosexual.
2. I have an introverted personality and therefore have not asked out any girl at the age of 16.
3. What is that even supposed to mean? Just because I am a decent human being like the majority of human beings doesn't mean men and women alike shouldn't take precautions. There are dangerous people. It doesn't mean I am one.

@Octavious, I agree that rapists should be given the death penalty for better deterrence, but then we'd need to come up with worse punishment for murderers and serial killers. Personally, I'd favor using them to replace animals in animal testing. I also agree with the rest of your points.

@Lethologica, Apparently a lot of feminists don't think women should learn self-defense. https://youtu.be/c5I8DkUPI5U

Give me some example of where rapists have been let go by the justice system. I believe it works quite well for victims of rape. In fact, the emotions involved with rape often overcome the objectivity of the court, which essentially assumes a guilty until proven innocent attitude.

No one has said that the victim was "asking for it". People on this forum keep trying to stuff words in my mouth.

You can't put each person through months of rape counselling. And mind you, these would have to be one-on-one sessions to have any effect. You can only counsel rapists who have already committed their crime. As for the varying degrees of sex, who are you to say that they would have raped again in the first place. Perhaps the criminal wasn't planning on raping again with or without the counseling. They could just as easily have learned their lesson in jail. And again, no one said anyone deserves to be raped. And I know most rape is the result of drunkenness or drugs. That is why I said people shouldn't get drunk in public places and should remain vigilant of their drinks. These are legitimate precautions as well.

Bystander education is a good idea. We should let people know that there are witness protection services and that they should report suspicious activity even if they aren't certain about it.

I agree that groups should stop pretending to be victims. There are few truly oppressed groups in developed countries.

*As for the varying degrees of success

@Leon:
"Apparently a lot of feminists don't think women should learn self-defense."

I think you should read the second-to-last paragraph in my post more carefully and also stop basing your opinions about feminism on Twitter reactions to beauty pageant interviews.

"Give me some example of where rapists have been let go by the justice system."

No. It is uncontroversial that most rape is not punished, and unpunished rape is relatively invisible on a case-to-case basis, so you're asking me to provide very difficult-to-obtain examples to prove a trivial proposition. The factors behind this phenomenon extend all along the criminal justice pipeline, from reporting, to investigation, to prosecution, to conviction. Some of these factors aren't really addressable--you can't wave a wand and make all rapes produce unambiguous evidence for conviction, for example. Others? Are.

"No one has said that the victim was "asking for it". People on this forum keep trying to stuff words in my mouth."

My point was precisely that talking about educational outreach as victim-blaming is misguided, so we're basically in agreement here.

"You can't put each person through months of rape counselling. And mind you, these would have to be one-on-one sessions to have any effect. You can only counsel rapists who have already committed their crime."

Since none of my post has anything to do with mandating rapist rehabilitation for all convicted rapists, I'll skip this as irrelevant.

"As for the varying degrees of success, who are you to say that they would have raped again in the first place."

That's what controlled studies are for.

"And I know most rape is the result of drunkenness or drugs. That is why I said people shouldn't get drunk in public places and should remain vigilant of their drinks. These are legitimate precautions as well."

While it's true that drugs and alcohol are *present* in the majority of rapes, your conclusions are pretty wild. Rape is not "the result of drunkenness or drugs" just because they're a common element. Meanwhile, most rape does not occur in public places, so while your noted precautions aren't a terrible idea, they're also less important than you seem to believe.

"Bystander education is a good idea. We should let people know that there are witness protection services and that they should report suspicious activity even if they aren't certain about it."

I...um. Witness protection programs are so far from the point that I'm not sure how you got there. "Reporting suspicious activity" is closer, but still only a small part of the process. Mostly it's about heading off unhealthy dynamics before they escalate into situations at risk of sexual assault/rape/similar in the first place. Victims, assailants, bystanders are all part of the process.

"I agree that groups should stop pretending to be victims. There are few truly oppressed groups in developed countries."

No, fuck that, I'm not interested in your attempt to use my post to further your talking points about identity politics. Reread what I wrote and then find something else to discuss.

@leon … "I specifically wrote that women have less exterior muscle ON AVERAGE. Of course there are exceptions, but the metaphor is based on a general trend."

The phrase "throwing like a girl" has nothing to do with muscle mass or testosterone. It has to do with the fact that girls typically short-arm their throws at a young age, mostly because, unlike boys, they aren't taught to throw baseballs. They're taught to throw softballs if they're taught to throw at all. As such, boys like to pick on each other and say that other boys "throw like a girl," meaning that their throws look funny and float in the air rather than staying on a line.

The reason that I point out these "strong women" as you call them (I simply call them women) is because they exemplify that doing X activity "like a girl" - or, in some instances, "like a boy" - is not a bad thing. Assigning certain activities or traits, which I'm about to get to, to a sex (this is basically what happens with sports) is a bad thing.

"I searched for feminists addressing the issue and simply couldn't find one."

Okay, so as for your apparent ineptitude with Google, I have a few links to share with you of feminists on male suicide.

http://www.bupipedream.com/opinion/33900/feminism-can-prevent-suicide/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/unwritten/feminism-its-not-about-blaming-men-its-about-equality_b_6724118.html

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/07/men-gender-divide-feminism

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rachel-egan/feminist-men-mental-health_b_8484594.html

The last three should be of the most importance because they not only address suicide but also other issues that you seem to believe feminists simply don't address.

"Feminists TODAY are privileged women who seek only to advance their own sex and shoot down any notion of creating men's rights groups."

Feminists today are people. Are there more women than men that identify as feminists? If I had to gamble, I would bet my car, my apartment, and my ridiculously expensive Edouard Vuillard painting I picked up at an estate sale a few weeks ago that the answer is yes. Are there many privileged women who identify as feminists? Again, I would bet yes. I don't for a second believe that this is because feminism doesn't pertain to lower socioeconomic classes; rather, they have other things to worry about - you know, like eating three meals a day and keeping their home. Poverty sucks. I hope you never have to deal with it and I hope I never have to deal with it again. If they had the time and energy to fight for a greater social cause like feminism, I would once again bet all of those things that they would.

"Redneck is a racist term just like nigger, and you certainly don't know what a fascist is if you say that your school district is filled with them."

"Redneck" has never been used to denigrate slaves. Contrarily, rednecks denigrated slaves for 200 years. You could definitely make the claim that "redneck" is a racist term at its roots, but putting the two beside each other again shows your willful ignorance of the history of non-white men in American history.

"Studies have shown that women are the perpetrators of the majority of domestic abuse cases. However, when men reveal the violence, they're laughed at and mocked, and their court cases are dismissed. This leads to victims being unwilling to report violence, creating underreporting far more severe that in rape cases."

That's an issue. It's addressed in at least two of the articles I referenced earlier. Do you expect me to address statements I agree with?

"I challenge you to find a single person in the Western world that hasn't been taught that rape is wrong."

In school? Sure. Challenge accepted.

Me.

Challenge completed.

@Octavious … you say in one breath that "rape is difficult to prove" in court. In your next, you say that you would be in favor of the death penalty for repeat offenders. My question to you then is this - how, if rape is so difficult to prove (which it is), can you justify killing someone as penalty for doing so? If it's that difficult to prove, is it so unfeasible that someone would be wrongly convicted that you'd be willing to do the irreversible and kill them if convicted twice?

I know how unlikely it is that someone convicted twice of rape or murder or anything of the like would be found innocent on both counts over time, but speculate with me.

"Catcalling is NOT harassment. A woman might not be interested in the catcaller, but she cannot deny his right to express his interest in her."

Not only is it harassment, but it's also illegal in some states and countries. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/29/catcalling-women-on-the-street-isnt-just-offensive-its-also-often-illegal/

Just curious, has the definition of catcalling changed? I've always interpreted it as just yelling out to a woman that you think she's hot/etc. How is that threatening?

Definitely rude or obnoxious, though.

Wishing leon would reply but maybe he's actually done some research and realized feminism and other oppressed movements are often legitimate.

I didn't realise you were waiting for my reply Bo. I've done some research!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/catcalling

I'm not going to open a link unless I know why I'm opening it.

I...think Leon was maybe joking because you were expecting a reply from leon?

Oh, are there two Leons?

Hi other Leon, I was talking to leon, notice the capitalization difference you twat?

"How is that threatening?"

"Just yelling out to a woman you think she's hot".

You answer your own question there.

It's random.
It's yelling.
It's unsolicited.
It's on your terms, not hers, because *you* think she's hot you think she'd want to hear that.

Now imagine it's at night and you're yelling unsolicited stuff at a woman walking home.

Or imagine it's s group of men in a car park or building site yelling unsolicited stuff to a woman on her own.

It's not unreasonable to feel threatened. It's, on the contrary, quite reasonable to feel threatened when some men that you've never met are shouting at you in public about the way you look as if that's acceptable, as if it's fair game that any woman any where should be subjected to the public scrutiny of men on their appearance.

I don't think most people would want their mothers or daughters to have to experience that. If it's not right for your mum or daughter, it's not really right for any person, even those who just happen to be a woman, to be treated that way.

"Oh, the things I'd like to do to you" is the most ambiguously threatening phrase you can possibly utter and I just heard some slobbery guy in a shitty Camaro yell it at a woman in town today.