And look how wonderful that has turned out.

The bible is full of statements that don't make sense to our logic. One example: the holy trinity. There are three beings in the holy trinity, but there is one God. God is both three and one.

No trinity makes sense. It's like horcruxes

Please explain the comparison.

So not a perfectly apt analogy, but a horcrux is essentially splitting off a part of your soul into a separate object so you can't die. Now imagine if instead of an object it was a being that your soul could act within. As such God can exist in three different states and still all be God.

If a being is omnipotent, it still can't be logically impossible.
God could not make 2+2 = 5.

I think you mean "can't be logically possible". Your statement conflicts with your example.
But if god was omnipotent, of course it wouldn't be logically possible to us. Remember, in the bible it says god created all the animals of the earth out of dirt and then breathed on them. Dirt + exhaled breath may not equal living creatures for us, but it does for God.

the trinity is one divine nature possessed by 3 persons, according to church doctrine. also god could not make 2+2=5 because that is a contradiction. truth cannot contradict truth. math is a logical thing we humans use to help understand the world around us, so in essence it is a human construct. again this is just the church. also genesis is all allegory. even the church says you have to be careful what you take literally in genesis.

Actually the Trinity does not defy logic. take H2o for example. It can be ice, water or steam. Yet they are all H2o. The Holy Trinity is just as logical. Three forms of the same thing.

well it's important to try to be careful with how you describe the trinity because each person is distinct, but otherwise that's a very good explanation. it doesn't defy logic it's just that so many christians don't get it right a lot of the time and spread misinformation.

i noticed a lot further back in the thread there was the rock-lifting question which atheists love to use to act smart. here's the summary. god is a spirit. he doesn't have hands. he doesn't lift anything.

The trinity has never made sense to me. How are three things the same thing? The water example is poor and doesn't work because while it may have different forms, it still cannot be ice and water and vapour at the same time, can it?

The trinity would be at least explainable if it was 3 gods. But how can you say three beings together make up one being? 1+1+1=1?

I never understood how people got so confused by the Trinity.

Supposing the Bible is taken as accurate in describing what God is like (kind of a big assumption but it is where all of this comes from): the Bible clearly describes God as a Being who stands outside and above all creation (Father); the Bible clearly identifies Jesus as God (Son) the Bible also describes the Holy Spirit as being God AND the Bible distinguishes between the activity as the three. One Being with three identities.

@MoscowFleet: Schrodinger's Jesus

Ok, the bible says those things. Do we just accept what it is, assuming that the logic makes sense but we can't understand it?

the trinity does not claim there are three gods because all 3 persons have the same nature. that is why we say there is one god.

Yeah, but 3 beings with the same nature are still 3 beings, not one?? 1+1+1=3, yeah?

absolutely. but it is not their person which makes them God, it is because they possess the divine nature which makes them God.

So you're saying that God is a nature?

I think you people need to look up the definition of "omnipotent".

close. more like...any person who possesses the divine nature is god. there needs to be a person. the divine nature by itself is not god.

I'm curious as to why there exists this need for a God, or Gods / deities etc.
Most God's & the attached theologies & religions seem to be created to serve some human purpose.. Explain this or that, help impose social order in a community etc. Fulfil a political need eg islam.
I am curious about the "after death experience" if it exists, in that, is it a singular individual experience, or can it be a shared experience when many people die in the same moment together.

i believe in my religion simply because 1. I believe it is true and 2. it is the most logical and scientific of all of them

@ Moscow fleet..which Bible ? The Bible of the Church of Latter Day Saints ? There's an imaginative work indeed imho.

the catholic church

the church of latter day saints is pretty ridiculous.
sorry i misread the last one where it said @moscowFleet XD

@MoscowFleet - I agree! The Trinity is not easy to understand, and you're spot on in the critique of the water/ice/steam example. It's not a good analogy because the Trinity is (3 persons in 1 essence), while water can be (1 essence in 3 forms). "Forms" aren't the same as "persons." In my own understanding, I've found it helpful to learn some of the specific terminology involved. Of course, everyone who has had Phi 101 thinks they know enough, and everyone with a bachelor's in philosophy is going to think they know everything. You can't trust the self-proclaimed "experts" on what is right, because most of the time the nature of truth and right and existence is the hotly contested subject of discussion anyway.

As I understand it, the distinction between an essence (what a thing is in itself, it's nature, often called a "substance"), and a person (a rational, individual substance (philosophical substance, not matter-based substance)) are distinct. Generally we only see one person per substance, because we generally only see finite and discrete substances like ourselves having persons. Yet God's substance/nature is infinite and creative, so the natural (and necessary) outpouring of that substance is the eternal begetting of the Son and the procession of the Holy Spirit as distinct persons within that same nature. Because the divine essence has the property of self-giving Love, He also then acts to create and sustain the world which is external to Him - thus creating other substances (like us!) to receive that Love.

The Trinity math doesn't work out if we're speaking of finite substances (1+1+1=1), but that operation is perhaps an oversimplification. What about (1*1*1=1) or (1^1^1=1) ? Or how many (1/infinity)'s are there between 0 and 1? Using mathematics may not be the most precise language if we're dealing with philosophical or theological concepts, but I'm game for trying.

Anyway, those are my meager thoughts for a beginning, and I'm glad for the opportunity to share and discuss. Here's some things I've found helpful as I have been driven to learn:


https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
The Athanasian Creed is a good example of defining the relationships between the three persons and the one divine essence. fwiw, this creed isn't designed to be an argument, but a statement of the conclusions. Check it out though, because it does help clarify what church bodies mean when they speak about the Trinity. (your mileage with an individual's understanding of that teaching may vary)


http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm
Thomas Aquinas explains it pretty thoroughly here, even if the text might be somewhat inaccessible. Questions 27-43 are of particular interest to this thread, and I remember liking the analogy made in Q93p5 about the image of God in man.

(!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw
If you're looking for a hilarious video instead of hours of reading, check out this video where St. Patrick talks to two farmers about bad analogies for the Trinity.

this guy knows what's up ^

I look at the Trinity in more simple terms. Think about any person. If you assume that we have souls, then all people exist in three persons. They would then possess a mind, body, and spirit. This isn't tough, exists in many cultures, and isn't unique to Christianity.

Take that and apply it to God:
1) The Father = God's creative genius / The Universe's lawgiver / The Mind
2) The Son = God's redemptive nature / God's physical representation / The Body
3) The Holy Spirit = God's sustaining Grace ./ Spiritual presence / The Spirit

Because He is God, all these aspects can work independently of one another. Just the same as with the assumption that a person's soul could exist after her body's death.

Lot's of people reject the notion of the Trinity (and God altogether) which is fine it is their right to do so. Still the idea of a being existing as a trinity isn't that incomprehensible, since many humans see themselves in this as having a mind, body, and spirit that are distinct and in some traditions separable from one another.