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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Eadan (454 D)
17 Sep 15 UTC
Beginner Question
I have a question about the defense of a territory and how the order I enter for the unit in that territory affects any combat in that territory.
19 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
16 Sep 15 UTC
(+4)
At least they didn't shoot him
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/16/440820557/high-school-student-shows-off-homemade-clock-gets-handcuffed
12 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
17 Sep 15 UTC
The Republican Circ--er, Debate
Been a while since I've done this, but why not--

The (main) Republican debate is ongoing right now, will end soon...Trump, Carson, Bush, Fiorina, Rubio, Paul, Walker, Christie, Huckabee, Cruz and Kasich--who stood out, who took a dive, and who are the big winners and losers tonight? (Based on performance, NOT on who you agree with.)
11 replies
Open
Deinodon (379 D(B))
16 Sep 15 UTC
Tell me a bed time story.
I want to hear a story about points. I see people with upwards of 3,000 D on here and I really don't get how that happens. There must be something of which I am unaware. I'm playing with other players of roughly my own level, which of course means I win some and I lose some. I really can't see so many people being so good that they always win so much. Are they not playing people at their level?
22 replies
Open
backscratcher (459 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Shouldn't a game be cancelled.
Shouldn't a game be cancelled or drawn if a country NMRs on the 1st turn and never comes back?
38 replies
Open
ghug (5068 D(B))
16 Sep 15 UTC
Need Some New Gunboats
My GBT games are finishing up, and while I'm thoroughly frustrated with their results, I need to sate my addiction. Requirements are that you not suck. I'm not that great at gunboat though, so that mostly means know what you're doing and how a stalemate line works. Sing up for as many or as few as you please. 5 point bets, anon, WTA, hidden draw.
38 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
15 Sep 15 UTC
A little help from my friends
See inside.....
34 replies
Open
Frost_Faze (102 D)
16 Sep 15 UTC
Need A Player for Austria
gameID=167274

Relativley new game only in the 2 year. Austria has 5 centres doing pretty well. Join if you want! Need new Austrian player.
0 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
16 Sep 15 UTC
Great Position Replacement Needed
gameID=160875
Look at Kenya, 11 SCs, no centers about to be taken... this is the spot people. Take it. You want it. You... NEEEED it
1 reply
Open
David Ridley (257 D)
16 Sep 15 UTC
Need a new player
I'm playing Russia in Maggost http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=166498 but will have to drop out. Would someone like to take over for me. I've cleared this with the mods.
0 replies
Open
Frost_Faze (102 D)
15 Sep 15 UTC
Join the game!
Hey! Europe traditional game of Diplomacy.
PPSC with Anon players

gameID=167433
5 replies
Open
diplomat61 (223 D)
14 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Push notification?
I find myself constantly checking WebDip page to see if something needs my attention. Is there a way of getting a notification when a game advances or even if you receive a message?

44 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
15 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
Please welcome our new admin, HR
Given HR's poor performance as a mod, I have promoted him to admin status. For the most part, it doesn't change anything for you guys, but now you know who looks at your complains about mods or ban appeals. Thanks, HR, for agreeing to take on this task. #LongLiveModCurse
25 replies
Open
tvrocks (388 D)
12 Sep 15 UTC
Comtroversial ideas regarding infinity
there is one infinity, 1/infinity=0 and .9 repeating is one. Domyou guys agree with any od these statements? I personally disagree with all of them and would like to discuss it.
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tvrocks (388 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
If there are infinities that are different sizes then it would mean that my theory is correct. If not it would mean that either the statement .999... Is infinitesimally close to 1 or .333... Is infintitesmally close to 1/3 are not true.
TrPrado (461 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
It's not that it eventually reaches one. It's that they represent the same value. It is already 1.
☺ (1304 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
Want to prove that .99999 repeating is one?

.99999999 repeating equals 3 * (.333333 repeating) = 3 *1/3 = 1
☺ (1304 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
lol didn't read thread.

Started reading thread.

"1/3 does not equal .3 repeating."

stopped reading thread.

Don't talk math if you don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, tvrocks. Let me ask a second question then. In your number system, does "1/3" have a decimal representation?

In my (and I assume☺'s and TPrado's), 0.999... is equal to 1 because we have defined it to be so. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_numbers: "Two Cauchy sequences are called equivalent if and only if the difference between them tends to zero." In our number system, the "number" .9999... isn't really a number, it is an infinite sequence of numbers. The number "1" is also an infinite sequence (a rather boring one, admittedly). These two sequences are deemed equivalent because their difference converges to zero.
By the way, there's a good reason that we all use the real numbers defined this way. The reals are complete (every set has a smallest upper bound), and any sequence whose elements become arbitrarily close to each other as the sequence progresses converges to some real value. This means that you can define any kind of function (sin, cos, exp, log etc) as a convergent series. And for the real numbers any equation a^n=x has a solution (if x is positive) which means that we can define square and cube roots etc.

None of these statements are true for rational numbers.
tvrocks (388 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
@smilry: lol, I donMt know what I'm talking about? Tell me this, is 1 evenly divisible by 3? Is .999... Evenly divisible by 3? The answer on. The first is no while the second is yes. I included a link earlier that showed that .999... Is while 1 is not. Also, is 1 divisible by 5 without a remainder? Is .999... Evenly divisible by 5 without a remainder? The answers are yes and no. If they don't have the same characteristics, how the hell could they be equal? It would basically be like saying that 9 (evenly divisible by 3, not by 5) and 10 (the opposite) are he same number. Think before you say things. (Sorry, decided to talk in the same tone as you for fun. As you can see it does not make an argument more convincing and just ends up being fluff and distracting. ;) )

@tr: that idea is fundamentally flawed as .999... Will at least start out as less than 1. The only way it would become equal to one is if eventually on one of the digits it transcended math, and became one, the problem with that idea, though, is that unless it reached 1 on a nonexistent last number, it would keep going. Even if it did somehow reach one it would not stop there and it would actually end being bigger than 1. Either it will get infintitesmally close to one without ever reaching it, or it will reach it and then keep going. Your idea is saying that it will reach it and then stop which is contradicting the very idea of infinity.

@bas: it would be impossible to write it on the current numer system, however, if it were on a different number system, such as one based off of 9s, it would. The fact that this number system is instead meant to be based off of multiples of 2 and 5 instead of multiples of 3 does not mean that the number does not exist. Also see my explanation to tr of how even if it eventually reaches 1, it would just result in .999... Being bigger than it.

TrPrado (461 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
"@tr: that idea is fundamentally flawed as .999... Will at least start out as less than 1." No, 0.333 < 0.334, but 0.99999999999999999........ = 1
They start out at the same value because they always have the same value.
TrPrado (461 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
It does not reach, it simply is.
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
So, it seems like you're defining your numbers as
- Either fractions of integers like "1/3" or "623578/1267"
- Finite decimal expansions like 0.265 which is equivalent to "265/1000"
- Infinite decimal expansions that terminate in a self-repeating pattern, like 0.1428571428571... which I expect you'll agree is equivalent to "1/7 - 1/infinity"

That works (sort of), but you already have pointed out some of the difficulties in your definition. It's hard to tell whether one number is divisible by another. Also, the number system behaves in a strange way when you switch from one base to another. I would argue that there are additional problems: square roots, sines, cosines etc don't exist, and it's not clear what sequences converge to what numbers. For example, what does 0.9 - 0.99 - 0.999 etc converge to?

For these reasons, most people prefer a number system like the reals, in which .9 repeating is equal to 1 by construction. By the way, when it comes to real numbers, anything is divisible by anything else (except zero), so we don't run into problems there.
tvrocks (388 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
Why doesn't it continue adding on 9s to the end if there is an infinite amount of 9s? If it doesn't have a digit in which it reaches 1 then it will, by definition, never reach it, however, if it does have a digit in which it reaches 1 then there will still be an infinite number of 9s after it and it will be greater than 1.

Please show the "proofs" your calculus teacher used so that i can know which ones to disprove right now.
A number is a number. It doesn't "start out somewhere" or change or anything, by definition. If it could change, it would be a variable, which is not a number, but a set of numbers. Yes, .999<1, but .999 repeating = 1.
CSteinhardt (9560 D(B))
13 Sep 15 UTC
I think part of the reason you're having problems here is that this is indeed counterintuitive. The concept of infinity can get rather complex, especially because there are many different things that we call infinity. For example, there are infinitely many integers and there are infinitely many real numbers, but there are not the same number (for those who prefer being more technical, think about this in terms of cardinality) of integers are there are real numbers.

So, since you've asked this as an honest question, I'm going to give you a serious answer, even though it's probably not the one that you're looking for. This is a historically hard problem -- mathematicians spent many centuries grappling with Zeno's paradox, because in mathematics, you don't debate whether something like this is true, but rather you prove it. And proving it requires really going back and understanding in a formal way what every one of these things means, so that you can reason logically from definitions. Trying to properly understand the answer to this question was a key impetus for the discovery of calculus, and really properly proving the answer to your question requires giving you a rigorous definition of a limit, then using that definition to demonstrate that indeed .9 repeating is equal to 1.

I can give you a couple of good arguments that it should be equal to 1. For example, the most common one was mentioned earlier in this thread.

We can let x = 0.9999...

Then, 10x = 9.9999...., and so 10x - x = 9, thus x = 1.

It bothers me a bit that people in this thread are jumping all over somebody who simply hasn't seen the same amount of math as they have, though, so I think perhaps I should add that this isn't really a very good proof, because we haven't really properly defined what it means to take 10x and what it means for all of these things to converge. Let me give you an example of a similar argument that you might not like as much:

First, a quick aside: since y'all have had some calculus, take the Taylor series for 1/(1+x)^2, and you'll find that it is 1 - 2x + 3x^2 - 4x^3 + 5x^4 - 6x^5 + ... We'll come back to this in a moment.

What is the sum of the natural numbers?

Let x = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ....
Which also equals 0 + 1 + 0 + 2 + 0 + 3 + 0 + 4 + ...
Then, 2x = 0 + 2 + 0 + 4 + 0 + 6 + 0 + 8 + ...

So, x - 2x - 2x = -3x = 1 - 2 + 3 - 4 + 5 - 6 + ...

But wait, I recognize that series! It's the power series I gave earlier, at x=1, isn't it?

So, -3x = 1/(1+1)^2, or x = -1/12. Thus, 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ... = -1/12.

Hmm, you might not like that answer nearly as much as .9 repeating = 1. But, explaining why one is a more valid argument than the other is a lot more complicated than y'all were making it out to be upthread.

Incidentally, if you have seen enough math to find a hole in the derivation I just gave, I'd be happy to point you to a more rigorous argument that comes out of a technique we use to evaluate path integrals. This is actually a surprisingly hard problem to get rid of, and really does require a lot of careful work to define how limits work and so forth -- it's honestly not a simple question, even though it's certainly rigorously true that .9 repeating is the same thing as 1. So, I'd hope you'll have a little patience for somebody who hasn't seen as much mathematics as you have, and maybe you'll learn a little something from trying to really come up with a rigorous argument that it's true.
tvrocks (388 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
@bas: that would be a negative infinity. I agree that anything is divisible by something else, however, it cannot always be written with the number system. For example, 1/infinity would be impossible to write using decimals.
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
So, I gotta check out of this conversation, so let me conclude with this:

If you insist that 1/infinity cannot be zero, and that 0.999999... has to be different than 1, you can. You can make the formal logic work. However, it's kinda tricky to work with, and your number system will lack some "nice" properties like completeness.

I would recommend that you read about the construction of real numbers, for example http://tinyurl.com/qzroluv (will download a .doc file). I'm sure you'll find it exciting and there's a lot to learn (or to disagree with).

Good luck!
TrPrado (461 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
tv, I didn't write down the proofs, and it was like a year ago.
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
does 1/3=.3333333?

a famous question indeed, but it amplifies criticism of a 10-digit system. Decimals are not as strong as fractions
tvrocks (388 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
@bas: even if it lacks "completeness" it will have clearly defined rules that it will follow in all cases, and that is the best kind of math system. Thank you though, your points were interesting to respond to, though i am actually even more convinced of myself now.

@ig: does .999 equal 1? Does .(1billion 9s) equal 1? The anwer on both is no, however, you are asserting that if there were enough 9s that it would reach 1. The problem with that is you are just heing extremely idealistic with this, either the idea that a number is infinitesmally close to a number means that it will get the smallest possibke number away from it, or that it woukd eventually reach it and keep going, if it is infinite, it would not stop and that would mean that 1 would alos have an infinite amount of 9s after it.

@csteinhardt: i talked about the x=.999... first page, go check it out, (i tried includinging a summarry,,, twice... But my ipad died... Twice...) basically, when you multiply anything by 10, it moves the decimal point to the right, and there will be 1 less sig dig after it, which means thatbwhen hou subtracted it by the original there would be a remainder. i honekstly also have no idea how 1+2+3+4... Would equal 1/12 but will take your word for it, to be honest i am basically done with this thread, all of my ideas are in it, and i believe i have eould not have any other hope of concincing peopel if it has been so deeply engraved into their minds,

@james: i completely agree, wnd talked about that earlier.
Yoyoyozo (95 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
What is infinity plus 1? infinity. If you agree with that, then you should have no problem with this next part.

1- 0.9999... = 0.000...1
0.000...1 is 0. there are an infinite number of 0s before the 1, making the number 0. placing a 1 at the end infinite zeroes is essentially the same concept adding 1 to infinite, making it irrelevant. There is no where to put the 1 because the zeroes will just keep coming. That means that .999... is exactly 0 away from 1, making .9999 equal to 1.
TrPrado (461 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
"0.000...1 is 0. there are an infinite number of 0s before the 1, making the number 0."
Same thing as 1/infinity, actually. Which he claims is not the same as 0 in OP.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Damn, missed another .999 =?= 1 thread.

Most things have been covered, but tvrocks has asked several times about infinity of different sizes and I don't think anyone has pointed out this does exist. Infinity is broken into Countable and Uncountable infinities. I don't think this is exactly what he meant, but it's a good thing to know about while talking about infinity.
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
@ yoyoyozo
"1- 0.9999... = 0.000...1
0.000...1 is 0"

BUT WAIT!!! 0.000...1 TIMES Infinity equals infinity, whereas 0 TIMES infinity equals 0

so they are not the same
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
lol i'm just being an ass, this thread has cycled around already
Yoyoyozo (95 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
Lol but James, both of those statements are incorrect.
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
well... not 0 x infinity = 0 but .000...1 x infinity = infinity is wrong, technically kinda i hate indeterminates
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
0 x infinity is all kinds of undefined.
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
I know i know, but in essence infinity itself is undefined, but i'm referring to a singular unknown, not an all encompassing multi variable infinity
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
Also, Abge you need to post more, I'm finding it hard to +1 obsess on you
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
and yes, depending on what kind of mathematics you are studying, there are several different qualifications for infinity
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
"Also, Abge you need to post more, I'm finding it hard to +1 obsess on you"

I'm already one of the highest posting users on this site lol

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219 replies
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Jul 15 UTC
(+2)
webDip Player Map
The webDip Player Map can be used to help coordinate F2F games, find tournaments, or just get a sense of webDip demographics. If you'd like to be added, post here with your City, Country, and Color Preference.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zkz1OHicklqk.ky67Va8gNVi0
81 replies
Open
DeathLlama8 (514 D)
11 Sep 15 UTC
Live Mafia Interest?
As below, above?
39 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
10 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
House Game Cambridge, MA 9/19
Looking for two players. Casual, fun, you can make fun of abge's mustache. PM or post if interested or for more info.
11 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (898 D)
12 Sep 15 UTC
Labour and Jeremy Corbyn
In a couple of hours the UK's Labour Party will announce the winner of its leadership contest. The favourite to win is Jeremy Corbyn, the most left-wing of the four candidates, but moderate candidate Andy Burnham has told supporters he feels he still has an "outside chance". Post thoughts and reactions here...
65 replies
Open
Fluminator (1500 D)
03 Sep 15 UTC
(+2)
Transgender student demanding girls' locker room and bathroom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us/teenagers-protest-a-transgender-students-use-of-the-girls-bathroom.html?_r=0
230 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2611 D(B))
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+4)
Mod Team Announcement
The mod team is please to announce that uclabb has agreed to join the team as our newest mod. Please make him feel welcome.
30 replies
Open
charlesf (100 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
1936 Variant: Tournament Invitation
I am seeking participants in a small tournament featuring my 1936 variant.
9 replies
Open
wjessop (100 DX)
01 Sep 15 UTC
Does the Pope eat on Mondays?
Winner is the last person to post an inane question when the thread is locked due to inactivity.
136 replies
Open
EmmaGoldman (1001 D)
13 Sep 15 UTC
New game, PPS, 160pts bid, anon.; The coming autumn
looking for a good straight forward game, check out 'The Coming Autumn'
0 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
13 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Social Justice Warriors
Social Justice Warriors and the politically correct tribe are ruining America.
12 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
12 Sep 15 UTC
(+14)
Ladies and Gentlemen
It's been an honor. I have stepped down as an admin. Wish you all the best.
46 replies
Open
pidbew (100 D)
12 Sep 15 UTC
Someone take over my account
I am going out of town and won't have internet access. I currently have only one game running (http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=167022), and it is going pretty well. If you want to, post below or send me a message, and I will send you the password.
4 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
04 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Pacifist SRG
'The Gunboat varient is only one step more enjoyable that the infamous Pacifist varient, in which speaking is allowed but moving units is forbidden and the winner is the last player to lose the will to live.'--Octavious
gameID=166960
84 replies
Open
diplomat61 (223 D)
10 Sep 15 UTC
(+1)
Haiku diplomacy
Sad promise of Spring / Foul rumours threaten the peace / Dark days lie ahead

Proposed: public press only (in Haiku form), anon, 24 hour turns, PPSC.
32 replies
Open
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
11 Sep 15 UTC
Can you actually solo without someone throwing the game?
I recently got my first solo in a non-live, full-press WTA game since 2010, but only because one player decided to throw me the game. Even at 17 centers, I could still have been stopped if everyone else worked together. This got me wondering: are there examples if high-quality games where somebody got a solo without being thrown one?
52 replies
Open
Eadan (454 D)
12 Sep 15 UTC
World Map Question
Question about the RIS squares on the board.

In the lower left-hand corner of the map - it that land, water, or both? Looking on the lower right-hand of the map, there appears to be an RIS land but also an RIS water. Which is it and do either of those territories directly link to the two squares in the lower left-hand side of the map?
4 replies
Open
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