Gotcha 2WL… my bad.

Any time krellin uses "PWND" in a post it's time to leave this thread because he realizes he's lost miserably and tries without success to enhance his own credibility on a point that's completely wrong… bye all.

Cool, so by Krellin's rationale since he exists in a liberal social democracy, he could not exist outside a liberal social democracy. Good to know.

By the way, THAT is an example of a logical fallacy. It's called a non sequiter and you should check it out.

lol no Krellin, you don't get to dictate homework for me. It isn't my burden of proof, since I made no claims.

Besides, last time I did "homework" for fun in an argument with you, I don't think you liked the results... talk about pwned lol.

Fasces: the only thing that is implied in my comment is that you couldn't draw the general conclusion you drew from your premiss, regardless of your knowledge of La Liga.

"Fasces: the only thing that is implied in my comment is that you couldn't draw the general conclusion you drew from your premiss, regardless of your knowledge of La Liga."
I could because I misunderstood the premise of your post. I thought you implied that Barcelona only uses players from its farm team, but I could name one player that broke this rule.

The reason I didn't think you meant they did this for only one game is because, as I said, I am a hockey fan, and it has happened so frequently in hockey that I didn't consider doing this for one game to be a big deal.

I don't think that there's a single professional hockey team to have lined up ONLY players that they trained from the juniors on.
And I'm also not sure that there's been a recent case in hockey history where a team lined up ONLY players that they recruited.
Agreed that, in the old days, hockey teams mostly relied on local talent that they had trained from an early-ish age. That's not been the case since the 80s I would say.

I'm from Canada. I follow hockey. I have since I was very little. And I'm not so little anymore.

And I would, in all Canadian politeness, humbly suggest that you ask a question next time you're not clear on something... rather than coming up with arguments that completely miss their target.

Profit motive hurts professional sports...my case in point, the Miami Marlins owner, Jeffrey Loria, raping the citizens of Miami for a ridiculous amount of tax dollars and other incentives to build a stadium. He collected MLB profit sharing revenue, pocketed most of it, and blows up his roster anytime it comes close to success so he can line his pockets with money stolen from taxpayer pockets.

If you can't read that, krellin, push your head up your ass a bit farther. There's daylight up ahead, I promise!

European sports prove the success of profit motif. They are far more competitive because of the change of being regulated or promoted at the end of the season, and if you are demoted, you lose a ton of revenue. The result is that unlike American sports where sucky teams play more sucky at the end of the year, hang on this brings up a point

@Cachimbo: 2007 a New York Islanders vs New Jersey Devils game.
The New Jersey Devils played their farm team and back up goaltender for the game to 'rest' their players for the play offs. Many believe that they actually did this to increase the likelyhood that they would play New York in the play-offs (and if Tampa Bay had lost a game played the same night, then they would have Played New York) the that season (a far weaker team then Toronto or Tampa, which were the alternatives).

It is the best recent example I can think of where a team employed their rookies and AHL players in a regular season game.

Back on topic (about profit motif in sports).

In Soccer, since the better your record the more money you will be awarded both this year and in the future, teams will play hard until the final games, regardless of their rank. Meanwhile in north american sports, teams that have little chance of making the play offs will start intentionally losing games in hopes of a better draft pick.

The profit motif makes the ending of the regular season more exciting since it remains competitive throughout the league, rather then only competitive between 6th and 11th place in hockey and basketball, 5th and 8th place in Football, 3rd and 6th place in Baseball etc.

look, before you guys start blathering back and forth about whether profits motives hurt professional sports, maybe you should try to define what "success" in sports means.

I'm guessing you won't be able to agree, so this argument is pointless.

If you define success as purely "profits", then it definitely hurts professional sports. A second case in point: the Pittsburgh Pirates. For the past twenty years, it has actually been more profitable for the owners to field a losing team than to spend money and try to become competitive. Schemes like "Suck For Luck" and the traditional NBA tanking for a high draft pick aren't exactly profit motive per se, but they still are arguably bad for professional sports as such.

Hockey also shows that. Leafs are by far the richest hockey team and one of the worst.

OK, kiddies....time to turn in your homework...

By definition, a "Professional" athlete is one that is paid to play a sport, as opposed to, for example, an Olympic athlete, who does it for the future paid-endorsements, or because the local dictator will only give them food if they represent.

"Professional" sports are those sports in which the team pays athletes...and in order to pay the athletes, they sell tickets, endorsements, etc. Thus, the *intent* of the professional athletic team is to make a profit. That some athletic teams fail to make a profit does not mean they are not professional, or "capitalistic" in nature(for extra credit you can look up that word for your next assignment...)

The NFL, NBA, MBLA and NHL all all "Professional Sports Leagues"...which is where a....

HEY...Pay attention! Let's practice...everyone say"Proooo..."....come on Yellow, say it out loud...I'll spell it phonetically for you. Pro----fesh-----shun---nal

GOOD! Good job!

“Professional Sports Leagues” are organizations where a bunch of people get together with a bunch of teams and they decide they are going to try to make a lot of money selling tickets to get people to watch their sport. Now how this happens is often a long, complicated process, and some leagues have tried it and disappeared…failing to make enough money to stay around, like Arena Football. They WERE professional, because they paid their players…but they didn’t make enough money to pay their players enough money to attract the really, really good players. The really, really good players went to teams like the Green Bay Packers, or the New York Giants, or even the Detroit Lions.

These are all professional football teams in the NFL the try to make money on their own…but sometimes don’t, because, for example, the Lions should be playing in the Arena League…but that’s another story.

But without the profit motive of the league as a whole, class, there would be no league….and thus, to say “profits hurt professional sports” is like saying “food spoils my cooking”. It’s an absurd, nonsensical statement.

OK, kiddies…now go home and come back tomorrow and tell me how YOU want to make money like a good capitalist when you are big boys and girls so that you can have computers and free time and food and a house, instead of people that pretend they don’t like capitalism, but whom reap all the benefits of the system anyway, instead of taking *only* what is necessary and giving the rest to destitute homeless people and dolphins (who are smarter than us…), and gathering anything *extra* to enjoy in life by cutting down trees and digging up minerals from unclaimed lands and carving and smelting their own pleasure products…

@ Yellowjacket, here is an article about it that sort of gets at it.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2009/10/20091026/This-Weeks-News/NFL-Pares-Ownership-Rule.aspx

@krellin, I am a professional teacher, but I can also say that profit-driven administrators are hurting higher education. Do you think that's also a contradiction?

@krellin another example: Do you think that too much emphasis on making a profit might be bad in a professional minister? Nurse? Artist? Not everything in life is about making as much money as possible, and there are many fields where putting profits ahead of all else is clearly a bad thing.

"Thus, the *intent* of the professional athletic team is to make a profit."

The American ones in the long run? Yes. Every single proffesional team? Hardly. Many a sport team is a pet project financed from owner's regular business. Abramovich or Mansour are maximizing their utility, not profit.

ONE LAST TIME. BY DEFINITION, IF YOU ARE WORKINGTON MONEY IN SPORTS, YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. THUS, TO SAY "PROFIT MOTIVE RUINS PROFESSIONAL SPORTS" YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF, AS THERE IS *NO PROFESSIONAL SPORTS* WITHOUT PAID ATHLETE.

And for you pretentious Europeans that think your pro sports don't make money for anyone, but are just some roosters rich let's pet project....sigh....the players sure hell are in it for the personal profit, and will play for throughout bag 'o cash.

I.e. Grow up, get a clue, it's a glorious capitalist world of global pro sports.

Good night, my delusional friends (all of whom hypocritically sell their labor for personal.profit to pay for.internet to play Webdip, or one day plan to sell their labor for a profit...)

The *intent* of the team is to maximize the owner's utility function, either by expanding his budget constraint or by providing utility itself. The *intent* is thus not maximizing the players' utility functions - that would be the goal of the players themselves. Must be a shocking revelation for someone like you who apparently thinks a sports team is a workers' cooperative where the goals of the organization and the goals of its employees are identical.

krellin, you should try not being an asshole, people might be nicer to you.

I invented a new drinking game involving krellin and his use of the word hypocrite.

I think krellin did too, he just has the cause and effect reversed.

Lol ghug

dammit, thank you, Putin, ghug, I already forgot the #1 rule of this forum.

It's far more constructive to ridicule Krellin than to debate with him.

You can see how warped his mind is.

Since, in the conservative business world, "professional" means "driven entirely by profit," he then feels obliged to apply that same definition to every other iteration of the word professional. In Krellin's happy kittenland, anybody who is a professional *anything* who is motivated by something less than pure profit is just doing it wrong, plain and simple.

Now, I don't disagree with everything he says, I do think profit is a real motivating factor, both in society and in sports. I even think it could be argued (not by Krellin) that profits make them better. But the way he hamfistedly tries to push it through as the end-all and be-all, with zero viable alternatives, is, well, frankly what we've come to expect from the man. Zero-tolerance for any viewpoint not immediately in agreement with his own narrow worldview.

Vikings didn't bowl human skulls down the mead hall for profit, they did it for fun. Take the profit margin out of sports people will still play, watch, and love them.

Just to follow up.... note the multiple definitions of "professional," here only ONE of which Krellin has promulgated as the one-and-only correct one.



1
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b : engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

Without a profit motive, the world's oldest profession would just be free love.

@YJ - Actually, 2.a and 2.c apply to how krellin used it, but the irony is, his point about being for financial gain is in every single one. Every one either directly mentions financial gain/livelyhood or mentions the word profession whose definition, when referring to a professional (as opposed to professing one's beliefs or views) is as follows:

pro·fes·sion
/prəˈfeSHən/

Noun
1.A paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
2.A body of people engaged in a particular profession.

Synonyms
occupation - vocation - trade - calling - metier

Sp, in short, krellin was exactly right and you are either intentionally obtuse or simply can't comprehend basic English. Krellin +1000, YJ -1000000

Putin, if Webdip weren't so full of hypocrites, I wouldn't have to use the word so much. People that bitch and complain about profits, while demanding their companies pay them more, while working for more than they acutually *need* to survive, are hypocrites. By definition. Just, my demented communist friend, as you are. I use the word so often because hypocrisy is so rampant amongst the deluded leftist here that can't hold a consistent logical thought from one moment to the next.

ghug -- if spekaing truth makes me an asshole, then I am an asshole. The fact of the matter is, I have explained multiple times what professional sports are, how "professional sports" are not some cultural event, butmedia productions, etc. That the collective masses here are too ignorant...stupid???...to grasp very basic economic concepts and I have to keep repeating them doesn't make me an asshole...it's makes me a whatever you would call your frustrated father or mother. Oh...ok...I guess I'm an asshole. But for the record, your mother and father think you are a dickwad and they tell their friends and neighbors as much....so i guess we're even.

Krellin, you are so massively wrong. I actually somewhat agree with you here on the fact that professional sports are mainly profit driven. That doesn't mean it's a good thing. Let's go through your post:

"People that bitch and complain about profits, while demanding their companies pay them more, while working for more than they acutually *need* to survive, are hypocrites."
These people are actually those with a sense of justice and an ability to adapt to different environments. By "complaining about profits," I assume you refer to socialist beliefs, which are beliefs many of us hold at fundamental levels and would like to see implemented properly. We do, however, live in a capitalist society, and thus we will also complain about unfairness within that society, and work as a part of the (broken) system just like anyone else. Can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't complain about a corrupt dictator of a communist regime getting more than everyone else even though you support unequal distribution of wealth?

"my demented communist friend'
Some nice ad hominems you got there.

"deluded... can't hold a consistent logical thought from one moment to the next."
Says the one of the most most deluded, irrational, and incoherent people on the site.

"if spekaing truth makes me an asshole, then I am an asshole."
No, actually, being an asshole makes you an asshole.

"stupid???"
Perfectly polite and reasonable.

"your mother and father think you are a dickwad"
Nah, you aren't an asshole at all. Apologies, I guess I was wrong.