I agree, and I have had a very difficult time condoning those actions, and I can honestly say I am still putting all of the pieces together in my life, heart, and head. However, I just wanted to provide one instance where the rights of life, a woman in particular, were defended.

That being said, I have to admit there are segments of Scripture, particularly in the Old Testament, but even in the New Testament as well, that cause me a lot of problems. For example, Numbers 5:11-31 have caused me a lot of trouble. I would really appreciate if anybody could give me a reason for this passage.

*has* instead of have. I'm so proud of my grammar.

@Zach - the presumption is that she miscarried there or shortly therafter and that the miscarraige is because she is pregnant form another man. The curse water is effectively harmless to her and the only reason the husband would be jealous is because he hasn't gotten any but asuspects she is with child.

Basically, it's God ordained abortion combined with embarassment and disowning if she was unfaithful. But redemption because she wasn't pregnant if she stayed true.

Of course, in those days, the practices were sort of a mysticism/superstition with the supernatural being involved.

See thats what we need in modern times. Wrath of god on them cheatin' hoes.

THAT would make me a freaking believer.

"Had dinner with your ex-boyfriend, huh?" POW! Struck by lightning! Think no evil beeeatch!

@Putin, yes, violence and killing is sometimes sanctioned in the Bible, as a punishment and object lesson, and that's not easy to understand. But you can ask God to make it clear to you. And if you're angry with God, you can tell him so.

@YJ There's nothing wrong with having dinner with an ex. Now something more then that then yes pow with the lightning.

So true, Mujus, nonbelievers like Putin just can never understand. I love the fact that if I ever decide to pillage a town, I can offer them two choices... slavery for everybody, or death for the men and rape for the women.

Murder, slavery, and rape, that's a pretty cool object lesson for those non-believers, isn't it?

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

@ Zach, I often read something that I don't understand at the time, and every time I read the Bible I discover something new, often a new insight about something that I had read many times before. Numbers 5:3, however, states that God lived among them, so this was a special case. He was physically present among them ln the camp--his shekinah glory anyway--in the Tabernacle, behind the curtain, and miracles did happen. Lesson: No society should ever do this kind of thing unless GOD specifically tells them to (like the Salem witch trials, for example). There may also be an application to Christians, the bride of Christ--If we are not faithful to Jesus, we won't bear fruit, neither new believers coming to Christ nor the fruits of the spirit, which are gentleness, kindness, self-control, etc. At least that's how I see it.

I hope that didn't come out wrong about the Salem witch trials. Of course I intended that as an example of when a society, in that case I believe it was a civil municipal government, took matters into their own hands. The devil is a great counterfeiter of what God gives us for good.

Yeah, things like Jesus-approved slave rape. I hate it when I'm done giving my slave a really good raping and I later find out it was from the devil not Jesus. They act so much alike sometimes, it confuses me.

On these forums it helps to remember that most times, the more dramatic the accusation, the less likely it is to be true.

Mujus you've been a believer for longer than I have, maybe you can help me out with some advice.

How do you tell whether the rape you are doing is OK or not? I'm usually pretty sure it's OK if I say a prayer or two first (after all if God DIDN'T want me to rape he wouldn't have promised me it as a reward) - but lately I have this niggling doubt that maybe one or two of my rapes didn't have Jesus' seal of approval.

How can I be sure?

"@Putin, yes, violence and killing is sometimes sanctioned in the Bible, as a punishment and object lesson"

Really, what kind of crime did infants and children commit to deserve wanton slaughter on god's command by the armies he favored?

"
9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

What lesson is being taught here? Explain to us ignoramuses with your smug "but I know all" religionism.

"This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)"

""Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)"

Please, mujus. Other 'believers'. Tell me how this is not evil, and explain to me how you cannot be a sociopath for thinking so.

And explain the passage with the actual words written, not your random made-up midrashing that has nothing to do with anything here.

Oh, I know the answer, Putin!

It's PREDICTIVE, not PRESCRIPTIVE! The Bible is just saying how the guy will feel, not giving God's sanction.

C'mon man you gotta be mentally dextrous to keep up with this kind of thing.

haha the above was for the "happy" quote. I dont know how they're gonna deal with the latest :P

Putin, I can do that, but first let me ask you a question. Are you really interested in pursuing the truth even if it turns out to be completely different from what you currently believe? Are you sincerely seeking the truth, or do you have other reasons for trashing the Bible/Christians/God? Because when I shared how I understood the passage in Numbers and mentioned a general principle or two of interpreting the Bible, you showed obvious disrespect by calling it "made-up midrashing." That's not a very productive way to exchange perspectives.

Why isn't it productive, because it inhibits your ability to bs yourself out of these questions?

My reason for trashing the Bible/Christians/god is because people's lives depend on it. Your religion keeps cancer patients dying, because we can't even do stem cell research. Your religion tries to make teenage girls think they'll become autistic if they get an HPV vaccine. Your religion is spreading AIDS throughout Africa by discouraging condom usage. Your religion is attacking scientists everywhere because the truth contradicts your damn medieval dogmas.

"Are you really interested in pursuing the truth even if it turns out to be completely different from what you currently believe?"

Yes, are you? Of course not. Your dogma doesn't accept evidence. It's based on nothing but feeling and unreason.

So please, tell me how your bible provides moral lessons via its passages about god sanctioned murder of children.

"Your religion tries to make teenage girls think they'll become autistic if they get an HPV vaccine."

Let me get this straight, Putin. The Christian religion is responsible for the wacked-out claims of any politician who says they subscribe to it?

Will you agree to the same standard for Communism?

I generally disregard the whole of the Old Testament because I believe Jesus' new covenant completely overwrote that.
According to the Bible, Jesus promised a new covenant with the people of the world (not just Israelites), a covenant based on love and mercy instead of that based on law and punishment of the old covenant described in the Old Testament. So I think everything the Old Testament says is superseded by Jesus and his apostles' teaching and we can disregard the parts about the wanton slaughter in Canaan.

Just a note, I am not a Christian. I am an agnostic. But that is my conclusion from my studies of the Bible which I was examined for.

Except for these rather inconvenient passages:

""Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20

" 1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you."

Deuteronomy 13

The idea of an infallible god doing a complete personality change and overturning all of his commandments is bizarre. What a bizarre religion.

"The idea of an infallible god doing a complete personality change and overturning all of his commandments is bizarre. What a bizarre religion."
The idea of an infallible Putin is perfect though, isn't it? Shall we start our own religion? Putinism? Divinism?

Are you going to answer my question, putin?

Putin, there is no good answer to your rebuttal. The Bible is known for its many inconsistencies, but you must remember, while the writers of the gospels are believed to be divinely inspired, they write in their own words and write their interpretations of the events that happened. Also the gospels and letters that appear in the Bible were chosen by the Roman Catholic Church, not exactly the most open institution in the world.

My point is you cannot be too literal with religious texts, because religion is an ideal of living life, not a book of law (or should not be).

"...they write in their own words and write their interpretations of the events that happened."

Meaning the bible might not be perfect and infallible after all?

Its got effectively the same relevance as reading Dianetics, or the Illiad. Might be entertaining reading, but if you base your life on it, you're clearly doing it wrong.