LOL, wow. That's very intellectual. Christians show their true colors! PRAISE JEEZUS!

There are so many laughs in this thread, guys, seriously.

I dot claim o be a good Christian but a dixkwad like yourself doesn't deserve my charity. Your pathetic you don't see me going around threads throwing around hate speech. Are you menstruating or are You always a jackass

No, see, here's the thing, and it's what you keep missing. This is not a Christianity forum. It's not really an off-topic forum at all. If anything it's a Diplomacy/gaming forum. Christianity, like most religions, is full of hatred, ignorance and intolerance. I protest the mindless drivel posted in support of this religion on this forum, and I also protest the virulence with which Christians consider themselves entitled to spewing their anti-reason pre-Enlightenment hogwash all over the place. This is not a forum based on being super-friendly and tolerant. This is a forum based on WEB DIPLOMACY. You are off-topic with your Christian claptrap, and your ridiculous views are not entitled to any sort of protection whatsoever. Your "religion of peace" hurts the world in ways you refuse to acknowledge, and I'm not going to sit by and take it in the name of "live and let live." Your ideology professes to know that which you do not know, and that dishonesty is the true root of all evil. Your morality comes from authority, and not from reason. That is why I will not GTFO.

You see your problem is your an intolerant idiot and have no respect for other people and no understanding of the world around you or history. Your an idiot.

So go post in the thread about anarchy or military operations or proposition 8 or nazis or foreigners or authoritarianism in the government. No you pick out this thread because of your predisposed dislike towards christians. Grow up did your mommy not hug you enough. I bet your about 17 years old and label yourself a progressive atheist

Ha, I'm certainly not tolerant of ignorance masquerading as truth! And I do have the same problem with all of the other threads, FYI. But why bump ALL the threads when I can focus on this particularly egregious one?

Because your an intolerant ass?

@Dunecat: How did this universe get here without God?

But also, let us just look at this one more time:

"You see your problem is your an intolerant idiot and have no respect for other people and no understanding of the world around you or history. Your an idiot.

So go post in the thread about anarchy or military operations or proposition 8 or nazis or foreigners or authoritarianism in the government. No you pick out this thread because of your predisposed dislike towards christians. Grow up did your mommy not hug you enough. I bet your about 17 years old and label yourself a progressive atheist"

Let's look over that again. If you can't spell, and can't type, and can't write worth a damn, why do you insist on arguing online, where your ignorance is self-evident? Why not get a gig on national TV or radio where you can get PAID for your drivel?

@CM
How did god get here without a super God?
Why complicate things by adding another, very specifically defined, step to the regress?

@CM

"We are oppressed by shit heel douchebags by yourself. Why don't you pull that foldout out your ass an grow a pair you penis Pumper. So shut the fuck up dunepussy"

Now, now. Is that how Jesus would handle this situation? I think you need to ask yourself, WWJD?

@Conservative Man, you are a troll. It's one thing to post a controversial off-topic thread... heck, this place is full of those... and many of us like that (yes Dunecat, that is part of the charm of this place)... problem is, that you, Conservative Man, are insincere. Once your arguments are solidly disputed (as they were recently by Thucy and myself and others in a Creationism thread you started) you run and hide. You stir up shit, depend on the tiniest of loopholes (as noted by Chrispminis) to sustain your arguments for a while, then when presented with a fact based argument that blows yours out of the water you simply ignore it... not even respond. You are insincere in your 'debating' and *that*, not the topic, is what makes your threads a waste of time.

>Because your an intolerant ass?
The irony is almost unbearable.

>@Dunecat: How did this universe get here without God?
First of all, this red herring is totally irrelevant to whether or not you should be having this discussion on this forum. But I will call upon the words of minds more brilliant than my own:

"This is more than a little wooly and clearly question-begging. You are making the positive assertion that the universe had a Creator. Doing so, you are attempting to make a substantial contribution to the science of cosmology. When the real cosmologists come back from their next conference and say things like, "spacetime may be a closed manifold and, therefore, may have no beginning or end" this would be one of many possible descriptions of the universe which would close the door on a creation event and, therefore, on a Creator. [...] There are many ways that science could conflict with the "truth" upon which your faith now rests. For those interested in the origins of the universe, there is the real science of cosmology. For those who want to know about the evolution of life on this planet, biology, chemistry and their subspecialties offer real nourishment. (Knowledge in most scientific domains is now doubling about every five years. How fast is it growing in religion?) And if ethics and spirituality are what concern you, there are now scientists making serious efforts to understand these features of our experience-both by studying the brain function of advanced contemplatives and by practicing meditation and other (non-faith-based) spiritual disciplines themselves. Even when it comes to compassion and self-transcendence, there is new wine (slowly) being poured. Why not catch it with a clean glass?" -- Sam Harris, in a conversation with Andrew Sullivan (http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Secular-Philosophies/Is-Religion-Built-Upon-Lies.aspx?p=3)

Uhuh what's misspelled.

YOU hide behind your facade of an intellectual an speak quite pedantically. But your intolerance is pathetic

No abegmacht that curse ridden diatribe was perpetrated by myself

>Uhuh what's misspelled.
>YOU hide behind your facade of an intellectual an speak quite pedantically. But your intolerance is pathetic


Son, you're not even reading anymore.

@Dexter: I'm not a troll a honestly believe what I say. When have I ever run from an argument? And how the hell do I depend on loopholes?

@Abgemacht: Centurion said that

@Dave: Time began with the universe. God existed before the universe began. That means that if God was created, he would had to have been created when there was no time, which is impossible, as there need to be cause and effect for creation to happen. So God could not have been created. God was simply the first thing to exist.

Should be *and honestly*

Sorry, I really haven't been paying much attention to this thread.

>@Dave: Time began with the universe. God existed before the universe began. That means that if God was created, he would had to have been created when there was no time, which is impossible, as there need to be cause and effect for creation to happen. So God could not have been created. God was simply the first thing to exist.

You've been refuted squarely. See above!

"Time began with the universe."
Source?
"God existed before the universe began."
Source?
"That means that if God was created, he would had to have been created when there was no time"
This is fine, providing the previous two sentences hold up.

"which is impossible, as there need to be cause and effect for creation to happen."
Source?

"So God could not have been created. God was simply the first thing to exist."
First implies time...

@Dunecat: I'm not assuming the universe has a creator, I'm asking how it got here by itself, and how the hell our universe supports life, when, if the universe were was created on its own, the overwhelming odds are that it would not support life.

@abge...- well said

@CM even if your 3 asserted principles are correct, surely the universe would have been created when there was no time, as time begins with the universe, just as void of cause and effect as God?

@Abgemacht: Time began with the universe because time is one of the dimensions of the universe. God existed before the universe because it's a given. We are arguing about if God created the universe. God could not have created the universe if he had not existed before the universe began.

""which is impossible, as there need to be cause and effect for creation to happen."
Source?" The cause is the act of creating, the effect is the creation.

""So God could not have been created. God was simply the first thing to exist."
First implies time..." Okay, a better way to word it would be: God was the only thing to exist before the universe began.

(note: I'm only using the word 'before' for lack of a better word.

>@Dunecat: I'm not assuming the universe has a creator, I'm asking how it got here by itself, and how the hell our universe supports life, when, if the universe were was created on its own, the overwhelming odds are that it would not support life.

You realize that, cosmologically, Earth is extraordinarily rare?

@Conservative Man, check the recent Creationism thread you started (it's sunk down the board quite a bit by now I suspect) - in the fifth post in that thread Thucy makes a clear simple assertion about how Genesis contradicts known reality about the order of life appearing on Earth... you proceed through several pages to ignore it. I post a longer take down based on even more contradictions in Genesis (and reminding you to look back at Thucy's post) - you obviously read my post because you respond to it - but you only respond (apparently) to the part you feel you can dispute (about smoke and ash obscuring the sun being the reason that the biblical chronology mentions the sun, moon and stars so late)... but ignore completely the other dozen or so contradictions. ...and you never respond to the point that the smoke and ash would cause a problem for photosynthesis so critical to plant life (which supposedly was present before the sun was visible, according to Genesis).

...and if you can't see how much you depend on scrambling for loopholes of possible though quite unlikely meanings in the Bible (to throw a lifeline to your literalist/inerrant view) then I'm not sure how I can help you see it. It's as plain as day to at least several of us. Not to say that we all aren't sometimes blind to something about ourselves that is obvious to everyone else. ...as George Orwell so well stated: "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

@Dave: Okay, but there is no evidence supporting either assumption, so Occam's Razor comes into play. (search it if you don't know what it is)

Now which has less assumptions, starting with God, or starting with the universe?

Let's see, with God we assume we start with a single consciousness. With the universe, we assume we start with a bunch of matter. I'm not sure if each atom counts as one assumtion. If that's true, than the God theory is obviously right. If not, then we're tied. So I would then say this: All that matter being created out of nothing violates the laws of physics. God however, need not be made of matter,so that doesn't violate the laws of physics. So either way, it is more likely God exists.

@CM

I understand what you said; I"m not asking you to rephrase it. I want you to show me sources that back up your claims.

@dexter: Oh yeah, I remember that now. But the only reason I didn't respond was because I couldn't think of a good argument. Now I have a so-so argument: Just because the Bible has it in the wrong order doesn't mean the whole creation account is wrong. There could have been a typo, Moses, who wrote Genesis, might have been confused, and probably lots of other things that I can't think of. (And yes, I know this is a weak argument)

However, you called me a troll, and I am most definitely not a troll.