Was Sosa ever 'convicted' for steroids?

If he doesn't hurt his arm. His fundamentals are funky.

I have to say, Draug, I saw him with Louisville when they came to play Indy and he had zero command of anything, including the slider. The first few months he was up in the majors, it was the same thing. The last three or so games I saw him play in, he was brilliant, and you know exactly when that streak started. He threw 103 with Louisville, but he threw 103 with the reds down and away - absolute filth tagged with 86 on the slider. Might as well just call the inning before it happens if Bryan Price gets him going full speed, which he isn't at yet.

Positive test, yes. Don't think he ever came out himself, but it doesn't matter.

What about Jack Morris for the Hall?

He got 66% last time...maybe with all the juicers in this time he gets some extra votes?

Then again, as stated...

Schilling, Piazza, Biggio...maybe Bagwell (that'd be nice, to see them go in together)--

Good 2013 HOF Class right there.

I think Bagwell deserves to be in.

The name Bagwell makes me sad because all I can think of is Larry Andersen.

All I can think of is that the Red Sox traded him for a prospect whose name I don't know because he sucked.

Larry Andersen. lol

And Larry wasn't even a prospect. He was a rent-a-reliever for a month.

Yeah, see, proof! I was right on.

Thanks for the shout out Krellin.

And anecdotal evidence of Pete Rose's personality: At a spring training game a friend of mine asked him for his autograph while he was jogging by. Pete turned around and said, "Fuck you Kid!" And kept running. I find this kind of hilarious but a serious dick move.

Is it even worth it to try to keep steroid users out anymore? So many athletes use them nowadays that you're almost certainly going to be inducting steroid users into the HOF even if you try to weed out those who were caught. And you end up putting players who by any objective measurement were not the best in their class into the HOF, which defeats the point of something meant to enshrine the best players of their class.

I get that inducting known steroid users into the HOF leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, but steroid use is already too widespread. You're eventually going to be including steroid users in the HOF. Might as well get ahead of the curve and not leave out some of the best who have ever played in the name of fighting a losing battle.

Why do we have to put anyone in? If all you have are mediocre players and druggies, don't put anyone in.

Bonds' stats prior to 1999 were already HOF worthy. 8-time all star; 3-time MVP winner (came in 2nd in 1991). 8 time gold glove winner. Why did he started to juice is beyond me, he was already the best.

"I know what he did and didn't admit to doing. He did the equivalent to pleading no contest. That is an admission of the facts presented, not admitting to the "crime" he was charged with. He admitted to betting on baseball games. But the rule clearly stated baseball games in which one could alter the outcome."

ROFL, he was player-manager and admitted to betting on the Reds every night. How does that not effect the outcome?
The rule is explicit:

"Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."

Why do you think he only started juicing in 99? He was juicing long before that.

First of all Draug, we haven't even seen Chapman pitch as a starter yet in the bigs. Let's see how effective he is with his fastball sitting at 'only' 96-98mph (chances are, fucking great but let's wait and see...)

Secondly, you're attributing waaay too much credit to the drugs for their success. Look at Bonds and Clemens before they were clearly juicing. They were incredible. And if we want to be all indignant about it, let's kick Mickey Mantle and Mike Schmidt out of the hall too. Fuck, who knows how many of the players in the hall were hopped up on amphetamines for their games.

The HoF inductees this year should be Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, and... Biggio(?). Not sure really sure who the 4th is but the first 3 shouldn't even require a 2nd thought.

His weight from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s was consistently around 190 lbs. He was also consistently stealing around 40 bases a year. By all accounts he starting to juice after witnessing the hysteria of the home run chase being Sosa & McGuire after the 1998 season. By the early 2000s Bonds was a hulking 230 pounds with veins popping out of his arms.

Mapu, I direct you again to Bonds' stats. He did not fit the profile as a juicer until around '99 when his ISO spiked. He was stealing 40 bases a year and slugging just as many dingers. Besides, isn't the whole thing about how his head doubled in size from around 98/99 until the end of the 2000s.

God, he's insane and - unfortunately - people forget how good he actually was.

"amphetamines"

Do you really think amphetamines provide as much an advantage as steroids?

I think it should be like college sports. You vacate your stats/wins during the period when you knowingly cheated. But if you're still HOF worthy with those stats taken away, you should be in the hall. I feel like A-Rod should get that treatment as well.

Rose admitted in 2004 and again in 2007 long after he was permanently banned. This red herring of yours has shit to do with the ban.

The reason Rose is different is because throwing games undermines the integrity of the sport in a very direct way. The Black Sox scandal almost destroyed baseball single handedly. To give a free for all on gambling on baseball would turn it into boxing.

Putin, we're arguing for the same thing here but, yeah, I think amphetamines can provide as much of an advantage as steroids. Obviously this is all just wild conjecture and speculation because there isn't enough definitive evidence either way that I've seen.

However, in a sport that so strongly based on concentration and reflexes, I think amphetamines can give a serious edge. In the later years, I suspect that steroids give a greater advantage as the players can continue other worldly exercise regiments and keep their strength up which is why you saw players like Clemens and Bonds juicing later in their career and experience a sort of resurgence.

So by yhat standard Rose should be eligible. It wasn't until he was managing that he was betting on the reds *to win*. So his days as part of the big red machine are clean and very HOF worthy.

Putin - Rose always bet on the team winning. He never bet against them. Throwimg the game would have lost him the bet.

Yonni, I notice that Edgar Martinez is missing from that list. I suggest you correct that.

That's what the serial liar Rose says. The lawyer who investigated Rose claimed there is reason to believe otherwise.

"So his days as part of the big red machine are clean and very HOF worthy."

Rose is a special case because he did special damage to the game.

Is Martinez better than Biggio? Biggio did play 2B his entire career and could run.

Also, just to give reference for how unfucking believable Bonds was. Biggio and Martinez had career fWARs of 70.5 and 69.9 respectively. Bonds had that halfway through his career and finished with 168.

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=1109&position=OF&page=8&players=549,1086

God, I could look at Bonds's stats porn all night.