" "The military don't start wars. Politicians start wars."

And how hard would it be for them to fight if there weren't legions of willing cannon fodder ready to kill for any reason whatsoever?

"Servicemen get paid to fight wars within the rules and laws of the nation they are serving."

And in America/NATO's case, that means bombing people like cowards from the sky and torturing anybody them deem an 'enemy combatant'.

I guess the flag worshippers are all about personal responsibility except when it comes to the cult of the military.

I wouldn't call them cannon fodder Putin. That's very disrespectful. These men swore an oath to protect the Constitution and are bound by law to follow orders. If they were able to disobey orders....well, we wouldn't have an army then, would we?

And these are not dumb people either. To be more than an NCO you need to have an undergraduate degree, and if you want to rise in the ranks at all above the level of, say, Captain (Army), you need graduate degrees now, so don't dismiss these people as dumb.

And Putin, I would rather be a flag-worshipper than be divide myself by ethnic and racial lines like most of the world does.

Happy ANZAC day to all Aussies and Kiwis

Solemn remembrances ANZAC forces and thanks.

"Whether or not that war was/is justified is not their concern."

Well it should be, quite frankly. They don't have as huge a blame as some other people but they are a part of it. That's why most Nazi soldiers wouldn't get a pass unless they could genuinely claim total ignorance, or they had some extreme extenuating circumstances for having to join. Even once in, they would have to prove they tried to not carry out most orders effectively if at all possible to be considered blameless, in my opinion.

Right is right no matter who you are or what legal code you're talking about.

People can;t shut the fuck up for one day huh?

Cool.

I won't legitimize Putin's hypocritical anti-American rant with a response, but I will agree with goldfinger. Some of the smartest guys I know are enlisted in the military, and have nothing more than a high school education and a ton of hands-on training.

@ Thuc

"Well it should be, quite frankly. They don't have as huge a blame as some other people but they are a part of it. That's why most Nazi soldiers wouldn't get a pass unless they could genuinely claim total ignorance, or they had some extreme extenuating circumstances for having to join. Even once in, they would have to prove they tried to not carry out most orders effectively if at all possible to be considered blameless, in my opinion.

Right is right no matter who you are or what legal code you're talking about."

I agree, but you can't really compare Nazi death camp guards with any other soldier.

I don't care if they are smart, it actually makes it worse. They would know what they are getting into by joining the army, they can't claim ignorance.

You can if what you mean is that they can both be held responsible for their actions as soldiers, even if they follow their orders to the letter.

I'm not saying what they do wrong is equally bad in all cases, just that they can be held responsible just as we held Nazis responsible.

Though I find it interesting that most low level Nazis (maybe all?) were let off. I don't think they were free of moral responsibility but at that level, how can you punish that many people using a justice system?

It's akin to the "you can give us ALL detention" mentality lol

The Turks themselves certainly find something worth honoring in the ANZACs: http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/ataturk.asp

I never said they were dumb, although your argument isn't winning you any favors, if anything it just means the privileged are leading the working class into battle, and enlistees can't become captains. How is this an argument in the military's favor?

And I agree with largeham, that they aren't dumb makes it much much worse. They willingly want to be shock troops for the empire. They willingly pose with corpses. They willingly piss on graves. They willingly pose with SS banners. They willingly gang rape teenage girls.

"I won't legitimize Putin's hypocritical anti-American rant with a response, "

Gunfighter is pretending his macho let's kill everybody and lock up anybody who disagrees bs is patriotism when it's really just hypermasculinity compensating for some bizarre insecurity. Nobody thinks you're tough, d00d.

"I never said they were dumb, although your argument isn't winning you any favors, if anything it just means the privileged are leading the working class into battle, and enlistees can't become captains. How is this an argument in the military's favor?"

Sorry for being unclear, but many of these graduate schools are ones the military pays for, or are military schools. Whether you are enlisted or commissioned means nothing. If you have the right amount of natural ability, the military will foot the bill and give you a higher education.

"And I agree with largeham, that they aren't dumb makes it much much worse. They willingly want to be shock troops for the empire. They willingly pose with corpses. They willingly piss on graves. They willingly pose with SS banners. They willingly gang rape teenage girls."

Most of those people are enlisted soldiers rather than commissioned. Still, those acts are reprehensible and are unbecoming of their position. They are usually punished for such behavior and dishonorably discharged. Just please consider that you are judging millions of men and women in the armed forces by the actions of several dozen. Most are good, respectful people.

Lol at how you guys ignored dipplayer2004's smackdown:

"The Turks themselves certainly find something worth honoring in the ANZACs: http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/ataturk.asp"

I think this case is closed, tbh, unless ANZAC refers to something other than Gallipoli.

lol also at putin's use of "d00d"

@Sydney City, I'd argue that if Gallipoli was the mother of all British fuckups, then the Somme and Singapore are at least aunts.

"The Turks themselves certainly find something worth honoring in the ANZACs: http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/ataturk.asp"

Too bad the Armenians just get a big fuck you.

No wonder English speaking countries look the other way when their genocide denier friends come knocking.

What is with your banging on about how commissioned officers are so much better, smarter & more moral than enlistees?

@Gunfighter-You sure as shit can compare them to the many US military members who have actively aided and abetted the torture of detainees. The difference between Wilhelm Keitel and Ricardo Sanchez is one of degree, not kind.

Speaking of which, thanks for posting some drivel from Ataturk on Armenian Genocide remembrance day. At least we're sensitive to the feelings of ANZACs.

Honorable people indeed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military

"I never said they were dumb, although your argument isn't winning you any favors, if anything it just means the privileged are leading the working class into battle, and enlistees can't become captains. How is this an argument in the military's favor?

And I agree with largeham, that they aren't dumb makes it much much worse. They willingly want to be shock troops for the empire. They willingly pose with corpses. They willingly piss on graves. They willingly pose with SS banners. They willingly gang rape teenage girls."

Enlistees can become captains. Ever heard of the GI Bill? Officer Candidates' School? ROTC Scholarships? Service academies? If anything, the military is the most efficient way for young working class military-eligible kids to get a college education and serve their country at the same time.

Your above examples are exceptions rather than the rule and you know it. Don't forget that they also willingly sign on a dotted line that gives the government permission to send them 9,000 miles from home to fight a war against a tough and determined enemy, despite the fact that there are many douchebags like you will overemphasize the worst in them and stab them in the back, all while they protect your right to say that crap without getting blown up by some al-Qaeda asshole.

Al Qaeda and the US military are friends. That's why we helped bomb their enemies in Libya.

Your buddies raping and killing Iraqis doesn't defend anybody from anything. It does however make contractors and oil barons very rich.

"ROTC Scholarships?"

How are the hell are ROTC scholarships relevant to enlistees?

"Al Qaeda and the US military are friends."

Putin please don't turn into Darwyn.

Just curious how this whole line of "only a few bad apples" in the military comes to terms with the fact that there are 19,000 sexual assaults in the US military every year, and overall have a much higher rape rate than the average population.