Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 761 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
05 Jul 11 UTC
GFDT Final finished
Not sure if its my place to post this as just a player, but Trustme, Crazyter and bockman have drawn the GFDT final.
gameID=56094
Congrats to them.
6 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
05 Jul 11 UTC
EOG: WTA Anon Gunboat-2
gameID=63100

Game's not technically over, but nothing can be done now, so here we go.
7 replies
Open
Mafialligator (239 D)
05 Jul 11 UTC
If I didn't know better I wouldn't believe this.
If I didn't know that QI has a reasonably good research team, I'd say they were wrong about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E7wgFcCefE
20 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Want to look over my essay and give me criticism? If so thanks
The prompt is - is the decline of the West inevitable?
Page 2 of 3
FirstPreviousNextLast
 
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
Here are some statistics of what it means to live in "poverty" in the richest country in the world during the dramatic economic growth. All of the following stats refer to the real poor who live below the poverty line, not just the bottom 20%

It sure doesn't sound like living standards in the west are declining.

1984 95.8% owned a refrigerator, 2005 99.3% have a refrigerator.
1984 58% owned a washer, 2005 84% a washer.
1984 38% owned a dryer, 2005 81% a dryer.
1984 95% owned a stove. 2005 98.8% a stove.
1984 70.3% owned a color TV. 2005 98.9 a color TV.
1994 60% owned a microwave TV. 2005 96.4 a microwave.
1984 71% owned a telephone. 2005 90% a telephone (land line)
2003 38% owned a cellphone. 2005 71% a cell phone.
1984 42% owned an air conditioner. 2005 85% an air conditioner.
2003 36% owned a computer. 2005 67% a computer.
2003 75% owned a DVD player. 92% a DVD player.
spyman (424 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
"Standards of living in Western countries are going down in large part."

How so? How do we define this standard of living. When I compare what the average teenage owns with my own teenage years kids today have way more, just as I had way more than my parents in their teenage year.. I can understand that there has been a drop with the GFC and Europe's continuing economic woes but surely these ups and downs are normal. For example during the twentieth century there was a drop with the Great Depression but looking at the whole century the trend in the standard of living was up upward.

If the West is declining in *absolute* terms why is this so?
If we look at the early middle ages we can identify some reasons. For example the rise of Islam cutting Europe off from Trade in the east.
What is the equivalent for today (or the near future)?

If I had to guess what a possible reason could be I would say depletion of resources and the consequences of environmental degradation are factors exerting a downward pressure (while the growth in technology exerts an upward influence).

But what other reasons could there be? In Europe in the middle ages organizational skills were lost compared with the Romans. This surely is not happening today.
In what ways specifically are we going backward? Which skills are we losing that will result in a drop in a standard of living in the long term?
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
My generation will make less money in real terms than my parents'

So that's pretty... clear cut. Inequality is also through the roof here in the US, and European governments are bankrupt.

Look if you want argue whether or not the West must decline I'll make a new thread I'd appreciate just criticism of how to improve the paper - I'm not changing the thesis.
mscott (384 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
I think you should be extremely careful about defining the current state of affairs as a decline. By almost all measures of standard of living, we continue to be better off than we were before, albeit at a slower pace. The situation you are describing is the relatively more rapid rise of developing nations relative to the 'West' (another term that has little real meaning). This is something to be applauded generally, and not lamented. The tone of the essay is negative about the idea that countries would begin to catch up, when this is precicely what we hope would happen. Instead of focusing on the corresponding increase one would expect from expanding economic development (and I might add, the likely political liberalization that will accompany the rise of a middle class), you instead focus on a conspiracy theory about 'The Elites' and their future domination of world affairs. It is a pessimistic, confused argument that lingers on invented nomenclature with little relation to actual people, events, or statistics. Sorry to be so down on it, but it's just way too rhetorical and needs much more careful explanation of the terminology used and more support for your central thesis.
spyman (424 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
"My generation will make less money in real terms than my parents'"

Real buying power? In your parents day how much did a computer with the processing power of an average smart phone cost? Is this factored in your "money in real terms"?
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
What accounts for the rise of developing nations relative to the West?
The developing nations aren't rising because of a new, unique ideology.
Developing nations rise because they co-opted western economic ideas to fit the unique structures of their traditional societies.
Co-opting those ideas westernizes the developing nations. The ideas of private property, freedom of expression, economic freedom, etc. all pervade.
I would argue the demand for political rites by newly affluent groups in developing nations is not likely it is fundamental.
China, India, and Brazil are not enjoying economic growth in a system separate from the West's or as a rival to the West.
All three countries enjoy economic growth because of their embrace of the West.
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
What was the life expectancy of my parent's generation compared to mine?
What was the average educational achievement of my parent's generation compared to mine?
What was the level of racial discrimination in my parent's generation compared to mine?
What was the level of diversity regarding gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation my parent's generation compared to mine?
What was the level of women's pay compared to men's my parent's generation compared to mine?
Alright before I respond, I need to know the specs for this essay. What type of narrative voice can be used, how formal is it, how in depth, how long, etc. I honestly cannot comment on anything until I know all of that. Because imo the essay is too informal, not long enough, and needs to go a bit more in depth, but I may be wrong. Also, I agree with your argument in general, but there are a few places where you seem a bit too sure that many of the things you list only affect the West, and you ignore many things affecting other parts of the world. Here are a few articles, you don't have to read them but at least look at the titles.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43635475
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43591667/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43633608/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43629773/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
I don't think it's a conspiracy theory, nor do I see it as a negative thing, how might you recommend changing the tone to avoid those impressions?
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
1200-1500 words, that's the only guideline i think, mine is 1300 or so
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Also what is the purpose of the articles? Trying to prove the West is better because it's peaceful or something? Lol.
No, I'm just saying, the west isn't the only one going through a debt crisis, China is in the middle of a housing bubble, and there are financial woes elsewhere. I mean, this confirms the part of your thesis about an elite becoming the leaders of the world rather than other nations, but I think you slant your earlier argument towards the fact that only the West is facing these severe problems. I will comment thoroughly tomorrow, i must sleep now
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
Who said anything about better? How about accurate? The West is not in declination at all. In fact the rest of the world is turning to western ideas of government, economics, and rights. You can't "prove" anything. You simply make an argument to support a thesis. Start with a more accurate thesis.
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
For a thesis how about "The eclipse of unbounded self-confidence in government to effectively address social and economic issues in fiscally sustainable models."

Now that is a thesis you can argue positively and it's pertinent.
Maniac (189 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
@Thucy - an interesting arguement well made. The pointers that others have given you should help you polish up the essay before submission.

I take your point (in response to another poster) that decline can be relative as well as absolute but would it be a 'decline' if power and financial clout were more evenly distributed? I think people are waking up to the notion that nobody 'wins' unless everybody wins. We need to tackle poverty, climate change, religious radicallism and more, and if this means the West seeing a relative or absolute dip in its living standards as a trade of for a more humane, secure and longer future then I don't see that as a decline.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Look I agree with all that, it doesn't change the fact that the West will decline as a result. This is not a normative paper - opinions on the good or bad of the decline of the West are not evaluated.

You're treating the word decline in a emotionally charged way - I take it to mean a relinquishing of power and nothing more.

The decline of the Roman Empire began to occur when it started getting less powerful, whether relative or absolute. That is happening with the West. I happen to agree with you Maniac about what you're saying but it doesn't affect the question I think.
spyman (424 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
How about if we examine the USA alone (forget the west)... not that long ago there we two superpowers, now there is just one. If anything hasn't American become even more powerful - relatively speaking?
spyman (424 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
typo... not that long there *were two superpowers
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Can't, the topic is "is the decline of the west inevitable?"
Maniac (189 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
@thucy - we are on the same page if we view the word decline as being unemotive but the usual use of the word "a failing or gradual loss, as in strength, character, power, or value; deterioration: the decline of the Roman Empire." does carry the negative conatation. If you are using it in a neutral sense then perhaps that needs ephasising somewhere in your essay.
spyman (424 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Thucy if you are talking about relative decline then I think a compelling case can be made easily. However you approach the question you need to be very clear by what you mean when you say decline.
I know of a great book on this very subject:
Why the West Rules for Now by Ian Morris
Here is a review (and brief summary)
http://www.economist.com/node/17199546
spyman (424 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Morris compares the West and East throughout history and grades them over time according to four key criteria:

1. Energy capture
2. Organization (large cities are an example of this and so are nation states)
3. War making
4. Information Technology

Thus for the East to overake the West it must exceed the west by those criteria. And it is clear that the East is catching up. But will it overtake the West and if so how and when? (not necessarilly useful for your essay but something I find interesting)
mscott (384 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
I need to reiterate again: this is not about decline. It's about other countries becoming better off. The United States (the West) continues to become materially better each generation than the last in absolute terms, as well as relative terms. Focus on the reasons you think other countries are effectively removing themselves from the poverty trap, and what the likely outcomes will be. I doubt that the development of a cabal of Oligarchs will be the result. I think more likely the greatest issue facing a world of improved material conditions and wealth will be an increase in potential conflict over limited resources, and not the conce mutation of wealth and power into the hands or a few. In fact, with more econOmicron and military clout from other countries, it is likely that the US will be more inclined to listen and negotiate with them rather than acting unilaterally.
mscott (384 D(G))
05 Jul 11 UTC
...concentration .... (Argh phone!)
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
The answer to the topic's prompt is "No, the decline of the West is not inevitable."
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
Listening, negotiating, and acting cooperatively with China is exactly the policy that Kissinger proposes in his new book "On China." The Chinese are not pursuing the same attempt to expand communism that contributed to the Cold War. Enlightened leadership on both sides of the Pacific can work together as long as extremists in China remain at bay.
One more thing Thucy, are we talking about the west as in culture, as in ideas, or as in a certain set of countries and their influence on the world? Each of those different categories will have widely different answers.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
The two, to the extent that they are related, but more closely the group of rich countries with European heritage, N. America, Aus/NZ and W. Europe.

And mscott the thing is, other countries overtaking the West does constitute a decline, in relative terms. And I think it is precisely because no one will any longer be able to act unilaterally that you will see these talking shops like the G20 and the World Economic Forum begin to resemble the "hegemon" to the extent that there will even be one.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
tettleton look i dont want to mute you so can you please be constructive - i'm not changing the thesis so if you won't help me make it any better... stop posting here or make a new thread. lol
mscott (384 D(G))
06 Jul 11 UTC
I still think the negative connotation is unhelpful. But primarily it is because you'll never get a listen out of someone like Tettleton. The key to a truly compelling essay is to draw everyone in, even if they strongly disagree, by recognizing that there are other sides to the story .... then BANG! you nail them with the kicker.
I know that there is a vibrant community of TC haters out there, but he's trying to make an argument against what you are saying, and he's doing it by providing data to back it up. You may disagree with his position, but you should recognize that there are many people out there who agree, in whole or in part, with what he is saying, and in an ideal world you would have a response to it that is based in a solid argument.
I think the following are ways to avoid that confrontation, especially if you have limited space within which to write you essay:
1) Make an extremely specific thesis, and do not stray from it. Do not generalize - you MUST be specific. No wasted words.
2) Be very clear about exactly how you are using vocabulary. As I have mentioned by harping on the word "decline" is that it has a negative connotation that is not necessarily consistent with the message you are trying to get across. So either change the word or make explicit how you are using it. (IMO you should change the word).
3) More to the specific argument: American "exceptionalism" as you describe is was brought about by the unique combination of characteristics that made America a world power - a vibrant democracy, accountability, rule of law, robust private business environment, and a will to succeed. If America is becoming less "exceptional" in that regard - i.e. other countries are succeeding primarily through many of those same approaches - then it should be applauded and encouraged. The idea that the rise of other nations will lead to a sort of "landed elite" jumped one more step than I could catch. I would have thought that with more real seats at the table, there would be less of the sort of "elitist" behavior you discuss. It is an interesting discussion (perhaps on another forum) about whether that is a good thing or a bad thing ...

Page 2 of 3
FirstPreviousNextLast
 

68 replies
☺ (1304 D)
06 Jul 11 UTC
☻☺☻☻ EOG
39 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
06 Jul 11 UTC
Alternative Tip for the Mute Feature
Some of you may have already thought of this, but reading the chat history just got a whole lot easier. Particularly in public press, muting everyone but the person you want to read makes life a lot easier.
3 replies
Open
Riphen (198 D)
06 Jul 11 UTC
Can anything be done against someone?
Who seems to play a lot of games with Friends. I believe they are different people but always seem to work together. Not going to post the people, I just want to know if there can be anything done. If people just work together in every game then that screws over everyone else.
1 reply
Open
trip (696 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
I like french fried taters...
...mmm hmm.
39 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
05 Jul 11 UTC
Orders not loading
gameID=63129
Live game, dunno if anyone can do anything about it...
6 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Whoaaa The Economist writing about the Harry Ransom Center.
I live across the street, wish I could have seen Prospero. Lol.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2011/06/harry-ransom-center?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/collectingwithavengeance
2 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
In honor of my country's birthday...
I challenge all US citizens to give just 1 hour's gross pay to the site. I did a bit more, but I have the means. Got a job, join me and make KestasI day!
7 replies
Open
Patriot (0 DX)
05 Jul 11 UTC
What is the speaker all about ?
What is the Speaker about ?
6 replies
Open
dexter morgan (225 D(S))
03 Jul 11 UTC
Schrödinger's Rapist
How to flirt with women in a culture of male privilege and female vulnerability and still be a decent human being
or A guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced
50 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Hurry, Hurry, Hurry - 2 more places available
0 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
27 Jun 11 UTC
Putting out an APB for resident Diplomacy badasses / July GR Challenge
I hope July GRs don't bite me in the ass for this, but I doubt they will so I'll go ahead and make the announcement with some time to spare.
119 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
05 Jul 11 UTC
Live Gunboat-106 EOG
By Germany. My first EOG. Be gentle.
14 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
Happy Barbeque, Baseball, and Beer Day (Oh, and It's Also Independence Day)
Well, technically, I still have 2 hours and 4 minutes before I'm "independent," so I guess I'm British for the next two hours--well, I wanted tea anyway, alright--so, yeah...but I'm already hearing fireworks, and it's time on the East Coast, so why not...

Happy Independence Day Everyone! A (Apologies to everyone across the Pond...) :p
17 replies
Open
The Czech (40297 D(S))
05 Jul 11 UTC
EOGS gameID=63073
Post em if you got em.
5 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
Is it just me, or are there a lot of 500 errors running around lately?
See topic title -- is someone else on Dreamhost hogging all the resources or something? Am I crazy? (Strike that -- I am -- am I just seeing things?)
17 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Jul 11 UTC
Austro-Hungaryis finally eliminated IRL
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14019319

Took, what, 221 turns?
2 replies
Open
JaborX2 (108 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
noobs on default map. :D
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=63054
0 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
National History Museum, London, Land's End to John O'Groats Cycle
This September I and two friends will be cycling from Land's End (the extreme South Westerly point of mainland UK) to John O' Groats (the extreme North Easterly point) in an attempt to raise money for this charity. We have just started to try to get people to donate.
2 replies
Open
Ursa (1617 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
Diplomacy World #114 now available!
See inside for more details and links.
3 replies
Open
fulhamish (4134 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
Age of Greed: The Triumph of Finance and the Decline of America, 1970 to the Present
I haven't yet read the eponymous book, however, there is an excellent review of it in this month's New York Review of Books. A very coherent argument is put that it is indeed greedy bankers (sensu lato) who have chiefly got the world in this financial mess and much else besides. Moreover, those who blame various foreigners and their companies for the mess America is in are barking up the wrong tree.
4 replies
Open
☺ (1304 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
ever heard of plato, arstle, scrts? morons. EOG
gameID=62965

Inside
14 replies
Open
mr_brown (302 D(B))
03 Jul 11 UTC
Question regarding to winning
Do you win instantly when your troops touchdown on that 18th center or do you need to hold it until after the fall turn?

In the one game that I've won so far, I gained the 18th on the fall turn, yet this one guy who lost his last center was not eliminated, but survived with 0 SC, 1 unit.
17 replies
Open
Mr Smith (402 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
Fleets swapping coasts
Does anyone know if the following moves will work given they utilise different coasts or will the units simply not move as Spain is treated as one location?

F MAO - Spa (NC); F Spa (SC) - MAO
15 replies
Open
☺ (1304 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
This game is called "Diplomacy" for a reason! EOG
gameID=62973

Inside
35 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
04 Jul 11 UTC
This game is called "Diplomacy" for a reason! EOGs
I'm assuming that y'all are going to draw after the Enclave's last stand in Edinburgh got (gets) snuffed out, so I'm getting this ready.
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Jul 11 UTC
What's This New "Mute Player" Option?
What...we can have voice chat now or something? :p

(Or maybe it's the Obi-Silencer?) ;)
5 replies
Open
Page 761 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Back to top