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Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
PFC Bradley Manning
A hero of the twenty-first century?
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Miro Klose (595 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
"@cent, while I disagree with Miro's obvious attempt to troll, "

No that is my opinion. It seems telling the truth is trolling in this forum...
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Miro, I was standing up for your poor grammar. I sure as fuck won't make that mistake again.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Miro, isn't this the point in the thread where you start calling me a moron and idiot for believing that politicians may not have the interests of their constituents at heart? I am genuinely confused. :)
warsprite (152 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@FS It's typical for someone like this guy to be short sited impulsive and not consider the consequences of his actions or he might get caught.. So I don't think it even crossed his mind he could spend the rest his life in Leavenworth. By mining of this info the enemy could kill many NATO troops and informants. But I guess you consider that 's worth the price of achieving your goals, what ever they are. Treating him as a hero is no different than treating a serial killer a hero because he happen to kill one bad guy.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Vigilante "justice" is still a crime. If you want to worship this guy, then you clearly don't believe in following the chain of command or letting the police pursue the criminals and you would chase down a criminal with a shotgun amd blow him away expecting to be praised as a hero. Vigilantism is a crime as well.Vigilantees are criminals and traitors who don't follow the chain of command are criminals.
Miro Klose (595 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@FS

American soldiers killed civilists just out of fun and were proud of it. There are several videos about this psychopathic behavior, i did not get what this has to do with another thread about anarchy? In fact i wonder why you don´t join in the "opportunistic" forum members on this issue and suddenly appear on the side of the good..
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Warsprite, do you really think that there is anything close to moral equivalency between personally committing murder after murder versus vaguely and unintentionally releasing information that may put several individuals at risk whilst harming the ability of others to actually kill people?

Certainly, I think that Manning would have been a more effective and a better whistleblower had he been more circumspect in his leaks. It would have been very bad if the names of Afghan informants had been released. Fortunately, they weren't.

Firstly, knowing the name of a village is not the same as knowing an idenitity, and that was all that was used to identify informants (plus sometimes an initial). Secondly, the vast majority of references to specific Afghans were blotted out. Wikileaks claims otherwise, but I am willing to admit that at least several individuals will have their security undermined.

But..... how secure were these individuals in the first place? How much do they benefit from having American actions go unscutinized?

I am willing to bet that on a balance of harms, both physical and intangible, this release will prove to have been justified.

Calling Manning a serial killer for releasing videos showing civilians being killed and documents showing American intelligence about it's allies and enemies is grossly off-the mark.
@Draugnar

"Vigilante "justice" is still a crime. If you want to worship this guy, then you clearly don't believe in following the chain of command or letting the police pursue the criminals and you would chase down a criminal with a shotgun amd blow him away expecting to be praised as a hero. Vigilantism is a crime as well.Vigilantees are criminals and traitors who don't follow the chain of command are criminals."

And black people who sat down at whites only lunch counters were also criminals. But they were right.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Draugnar, if the police helped criminals and hurt law abiding citizens then I would feel justified in resorting to vigilanteism. This, I believe, is a similar situation.

I will try to drive this home with several other examples;

I believe that the laws that preserve the rule of law ought to be respected only insofar as they are *actually* used to preserve the rule of law.

Similarly, I am willing to respect the sanctity of secruity apparatuses only insofar as they are actually fulfilling their goals of providing security.

I am only willing to respect the limits on my freedom in the name of the freedom of others as long as that is the result.

The fact that something is a regulation or a law does not automatically make it right. Hell, dictatorships have laws! The Soviet Union had laws! The Italian facist dictatorship had laws!

Breaking the law in and of itself does not in and of itself make you morally reprehensible if you do not believe that the law is necessarily representative of your basic values.

Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Actually just refer to Bob; he can clearly make my point better and with far fewer words than I.

:P
Jack_Klein (897 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
It amuses me to see people who are otherwise convinced that the Government is out to get them defending the governments need to have such secrets.

Didn't Draugnar make the point that he thinks taxes are theft, and just because its a law doesn't make it right?

So the government is benevolent when it keeps secrets, but evil when it taxes. Obviously making sense isn't some people's strong suit.

Just remember, black can be white if you believe hard enough.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
It's treason, plain and simple. The kid will go to jail for the rest of his life. And he should for exposing secret military information to the public. You can be against the war in Iraq, you can be against what the soilders did in the video, but you don't have to leak hundreds of thousands of pages of secret information.

Like many people before this kid, you ave the choice to just go home. Say you are one with the war and say you want to go home. Like people before him, you can go to jail for a significantly less amount of time for just saying, "No, I won't do that." Instead this kid wanted to hurt the US military.

And FS is just seaking attention with this. To call this kid a hero is just setting yourself up to be railed.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Say you are *done* with the war and say you want to go home.
Miro Klose (595 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
+1 jack
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@JK

I have no problem paying my taxes.... :)
Doesn't the fact that he had a much easier option which would have less negative consequence available imply that Mr. Manning acted out of conscience rather than expedience?
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
No, it means he wanted to stick it to somebody, and had the opportunity to do it. He acted like a 22 year old with a bad attitude.

And like most 22 year olds. He thought that he would not get caught.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
"Instead this kid wanted to hurt the US military."

Yes, because he felt that what the US military was doing was awful, pointless, counter-productive, and wanted it to stop. If you think he did something wrong, you have to justify both the American presence and its unwillingness to tell its citizens pertinent truths about the war.

"And FS is just seaking attention with this."

Believe or not, my main goals are to a) improve my own views about the world with some healthy criticism and b) expose some people, if only a very few, to an alternative viewpoint to one with they are usually exposed to.

But even if I, or for example Assange and that selfish Pig Manning are releasing and highlighting information primarily for the sake of increasing notoreity... does that make the content and arguments wrong or illegitimate?

I think not.
Your certainty as to Mr. Manning's motives is an example to all of us, Panthers. I feel comparatively stupid for not being able definitively divine his motive as different from that which he claimed based upon the evidence available. Clearly, I'm not as talented as you.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Just because you feel someone is doing something wrong does not mean that you have to find a way to hurt them back. BM could have simply took a stand, stood up out of his chair and said, "This is wrong, send me home." That would have been extremely honorable, in my opinion.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@ BG

I am pretty damn talented.
And let me praise you for the clarity with which you penetrated FS's reasons for posting. A simpler person, such as myself, would merely take him at face value unless there was some sort of contradiction to his claims. Fortunately, you're here to unmask all of those secret motives, and you don't even need evidence to so do. I am indeed jealous of your perspicacity.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Yes, my perspicacity is something that many people have asked me about. Maybe one day I will let you in on my secrets.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
If I am a member of an organisation whereupon it is revealed that it that consistently and unapologetically kills comparatively weak people (both those who fight back and those who do not) for dubious motives....

Am I more honourable in simply leaving, or trying to stop the onesided bloodshed?
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Trying to stop the onesided bloodshed is the correct answer. But your analogy is not even close to what happened.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
I do not agree with the premise on which the USA entered the Iraq war. It was a lie. That does not give this kid the right to accept the duties of his military position, and then use those duties to put the military and US government, not just in Iraq, in a vulnerable position.
Miro Klose (595 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
"Yes, because he felt that what the US military was doing was awful, pointless, counter-productive, and wanted it to stop."

What the soldiers did in many cases was PURE EVIL! I am no religious man, but the videos show the exact psychopathic criminal energy like in Vietnam, this is an absolute evil behavior. In the times of the Vietnam war people all over the planet protested because of such pictures and videos, but today...they just wanna lock away people like Bradley. And people wonder why the world lost its faith in the USA...
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Yes what the soilders did was evil. And what BM did was evil. to fight evil with evil is never going to make anything better. There was a better way for BM to go about standing up against the war.
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
And where did all the people go that were on my side? Damnit..... :(
Tolstoy (1962 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Brad Manning is a hero. If it want for Daniel Ellsberg (illegally) leaking the Pentagon Papers (an event which is eerily similar to this one), God only knows how many more Americans would have come home from Vietnam in bodybags. Maybe even you, Draugnar.

The REAL traitors are the *#!($& #&*(!^% ((!&!! who got us into all these messes. They lied not just to us Taxpayers but also to congress (which is a crime) to get the authorizations for all these military actions. They've done far more damage to American national security than anything this guy did. I'd like to know why all you hanging judges aren't pissed about that.

Doing the right thing when it gets you a pat on the back is easy. Doing the right thing when you face a lifetime in prison or execution for it takes real bravery.

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167 replies
Octavious (2701 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
The weird ways of Johnny Foreigner
As you travel the world more and more you begin to understand that people from all nations and backgrounds are basically the same. Then, just when you're beginning to feel at one with the society you're visiting, you come face to face with a concept so bizarre and alien it leaves you in a state of open jawed incomprehension. Lets hear some stories of the weird things foreigners do!
21 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Favorite Military Operation
What's yours?
142 replies
Open
ava2790 (232 D(S))
02 Jul 10 UTC
Commentary for "School of Classy (We Show You How)"
gameID=32686. Commentary rules and player list below.
210 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
What is the most ironic thing ever?
Here's one ironic thing: The creator of Stormfront, a white-supremist (read: idiotic) website has the last name of Black.
24 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
How's this for weird?
There's this girl at my high school who screams at the top of the lungs whenever she gets frustrated or stressed out. Sometimes we're just working in class and we suddenly hear screaming, and all the freshman are like, "why isn't anybody doing anything?"
21 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
I have to go to bed
I didn't want to post this in each debate I'm having.
2 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Wow. The New Testament actually spells out in the which commandments we have to obey.
Read Mathew 19: 16-30. And note that when Jesus told the man to sell his possessions, he was actually saying one additional commandment we have to obey: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The man was putting his possessions before God, that is why Jesus told him to sell everything.
164 replies
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frito (408 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Please Help Science
I am entering the third year of a science research class at my high school and so far I have had limited success with my topic, cryptozoology. I mounted an expedition to find Bigfoot, but came up empty handed. In order to have results to present at competition next year I have shifted the focus of the project and I would really appreciate it if you could take this survey.
45 replies
Open
Iceray0 (266 D(B))
06 Aug 10 UTC
Website
A long time ago someone posted a link to websites containing different opening strategies, as well as other strategies. I was hoping somebody could post me a link here. Thank you.
8 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
07 Aug 10 UTC
happala
yo like theres a new live game goin on, and if you joined that would be hella awesome.
0 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
live gunboat wta
19 replies
Open
flashman (2274 D(G))
05 Aug 10 UTC
I want to know where you are...
Yes, you!
11 replies
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Perry6006 (5409 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
777 game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35293
1 reply
Open
ptk310 (141 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Advertise World Diplomacy Games!
I've had troubles getting players to join a game of world diplomacy, I havent played this game type so i really want to so please join and use this thread to help members find your games!
4 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1228 D)
02 Aug 10 UTC
An exemplary partnership
gameID=34979

Kudos to Russia and Germany in this game. I don't believe I've ever seen a partnership work this well. When you factor in that there was no messaging allowed in this game, their alliance was literally incredible.
28 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
06 Aug 10 UTC
Je care pas
a propos toi
12 replies
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ptk310 (141 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
New world diplomacy game starting!!!!
We still need 13 players and it starts in 11 hours so please come and join!
gameID=35209
2 replies
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pyrofpz (0 DX)
06 Aug 10 UTC
live games
live games, hella quick paced. join now! please like seriously
oh my, just join a game already
0 replies
Open
Captain_Jay (241 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Failed orders
During Autumn, 5, in gameID=34421, Egypt convoyed an army from Cyprus to Sidon and had support from Tyre and Arabia. Support hold from Antioch was cut, leaving one unit against three. Why did the move fail
2 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Obiwan and the TV Church: Attempting To Understand The People of the Book and Their Point
Well, it's a common criticism of me when I speak at school, on the bus, on this site-iif you're going to criticize the Judeo-Christian Tradition, you HAVE to give it a fair shot first, church and all.
So I'm tuned into "Uplifiting" on Dict TV: All Bible Study and Christian Church programming, all the time! (First observation--Christians can't afford better production values for their Holy Netowrk?) ;)
30 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
04 Aug 10 UTC
Apologies to Babak, The Czech, and Ava
re: our live game last night. I did not anticipate it taking as long as it did, or I would not have signed up for it to begin with. I will not make that particular mistake again
8 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
30 Jul 10 UTC
Winning, Boring Play and Some Stats
A question that has been bugging me for a while and has come up recently. How does one actually go about *winning* a diplomacy game, and why are some people better than others.... more inside.
86 replies
Open
flashman (2274 D(G))
05 Aug 10 UTC
'I'm eating a sandwich now..'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10877768

And not a moment too soon either...
9 replies
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Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
05 Aug 10 UTC
End of phase "Now" problem
Every single game seems to have "Now" as the end of phase time...when obviously they aren't.
Can anyone look into this?
6 replies
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TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Jul 10 UTC
August Ghost-Ratings List Up
Current-list and All-time lists updated.

http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net
68 replies
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Conservative Man (100 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Stupid Diplomacy Question
You can't retreat to a space where there was just a bounce, right?
7 replies
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Benibo (727 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
Search the forum
Hello, I'm new here.
I would like to know if there is a way to search something in the forum.
This is because I don't want to bother you with questions that are probably already answered somewhere.
Regards.
13 replies
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cujo8400 (300 D)
31 Jul 10 UTC
Juggernaut Football League
On Yahoo Fantasy Sports:
15 replies
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Conservative Man (100 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Government is not good
But this website says it is: http://www.governmentisgood.com/index.php

First person to spot the logical fallacy in this website's argument, wins!
131 replies
Open
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