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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
PFC Bradley Manning
A hero of the twenty-first century?
167 replies
Open
Octavious (2701 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
The weird ways of Johnny Foreigner
As you travel the world more and more you begin to understand that people from all nations and backgrounds are basically the same. Then, just when you're beginning to feel at one with the society you're visiting, you come face to face with a concept so bizarre and alien it leaves you in a state of open jawed incomprehension. Lets hear some stories of the weird things foreigners do!
21 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Favorite Military Operation
What's yours?
142 replies
Open
ava2790 (232 D(S))
02 Jul 10 UTC
Commentary for "School of Classy (We Show You How)"
gameID=32686. Commentary rules and player list below.
210 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
What is the most ironic thing ever?
Here's one ironic thing: The creator of Stormfront, a white-supremist (read: idiotic) website has the last name of Black.
24 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
How's this for weird?
There's this girl at my high school who screams at the top of the lungs whenever she gets frustrated or stressed out. Sometimes we're just working in class and we suddenly hear screaming, and all the freshman are like, "why isn't anybody doing anything?"
21 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
I have to go to bed
I didn't want to post this in each debate I'm having.
2 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Wow. The New Testament actually spells out in the which commandments we have to obey.
Read Mathew 19: 16-30. And note that when Jesus told the man to sell his possessions, he was actually saying one additional commandment we have to obey: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The man was putting his possessions before God, that is why Jesus told him to sell everything.
164 replies
Open
frito (408 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Please Help Science
I am entering the third year of a science research class at my high school and so far I have had limited success with my topic, cryptozoology. I mounted an expedition to find Bigfoot, but came up empty handed. In order to have results to present at competition next year I have shifted the focus of the project and I would really appreciate it if you could take this survey.
45 replies
Open
Iceray0 (266 D(B))
06 Aug 10 UTC
Website
A long time ago someone posted a link to websites containing different opening strategies, as well as other strategies. I was hoping somebody could post me a link here. Thank you.
8 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
07 Aug 10 UTC
happala
yo like theres a new live game goin on, and if you joined that would be hella awesome.
0 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
live gunboat wta
19 replies
Open
flashman (2274 D(G))
05 Aug 10 UTC
I want to know where you are...
Yes, you!
11 replies
Open
Perry6006 (5409 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
777 game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35293
1 reply
Open
ptk310 (141 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Advertise World Diplomacy Games!
I've had troubles getting players to join a game of world diplomacy, I havent played this game type so i really want to so please join and use this thread to help members find your games!
4 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1228 D)
02 Aug 10 UTC
An exemplary partnership
gameID=34979

Kudos to Russia and Germany in this game. I don't believe I've ever seen a partnership work this well. When you factor in that there was no messaging allowed in this game, their alliance was literally incredible.
28 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
06 Aug 10 UTC
Je care pas
a propos toi
12 replies
Open
ptk310 (141 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
New world diplomacy game starting!!!!
We still need 13 players and it starts in 11 hours so please come and join!
gameID=35209
2 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
06 Aug 10 UTC
live games
live games, hella quick paced. join now! please like seriously
oh my, just join a game already
0 replies
Open
Captain_Jay (241 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Failed orders
During Autumn, 5, in gameID=34421, Egypt convoyed an army from Cyprus to Sidon and had support from Tyre and Arabia. Support hold from Antioch was cut, leaving one unit against three. Why did the move fail
2 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Obiwan and the TV Church: Attempting To Understand The People of the Book and Their Point
Well, it's a common criticism of me when I speak at school, on the bus, on this site-iif you're going to criticize the Judeo-Christian Tradition, you HAVE to give it a fair shot first, church and all.
So I'm tuned into "Uplifiting" on Dict TV: All Bible Study and Christian Church programming, all the time! (First observation--Christians can't afford better production values for their Holy Netowrk?) ;)
30 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
04 Aug 10 UTC
Apologies to Babak, The Czech, and Ava
re: our live game last night. I did not anticipate it taking as long as it did, or I would not have signed up for it to begin with. I will not make that particular mistake again
8 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
30 Jul 10 UTC
Winning, Boring Play and Some Stats
A question that has been bugging me for a while and has come up recently. How does one actually go about *winning* a diplomacy game, and why are some people better than others.... more inside.
86 replies
Open
flashman (2274 D(G))
05 Aug 10 UTC
'I'm eating a sandwich now..'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10877768

And not a moment too soon either...
9 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
05 Aug 10 UTC
End of phase "Now" problem
Every single game seems to have "Now" as the end of phase time...when obviously they aren't.
Can anyone look into this?
6 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Jul 10 UTC
August Ghost-Ratings List Up
Current-list and All-time lists updated.

http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net
68 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Stupid Diplomacy Question
You can't retreat to a space where there was just a bounce, right?
7 replies
Open
Benibo (727 D)
06 Aug 10 UTC
Search the forum
Hello, I'm new here.
I would like to know if there is a way to search something in the forum.
This is because I don't want to bother you with questions that are probably already answered somewhere.
Regards.
13 replies
Open
cujo8400 (300 D)
31 Jul 10 UTC
Juggernaut Football League
On Yahoo Fantasy Sports:
15 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Government is not good
But this website says it is: http://www.governmentisgood.com/index.php

First person to spot the logical fallacy in this website's argument, wins!
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TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
@CM, you aren't still obsessed with the no money economic system, are you? Please, no.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Text:

"But it is a mistake to believe that the size or extent of government has anything to do with how oppressive it is. For example, you could have a country with a minimal public sector that was very repressive to its citizens. It would have low taxes, few social service programs, and hardly any regulations on business. But it could also be incredibly oppressive – allowing only one-party elections, banning free speech, muzzling the press, preventing freedom of assembly, jailing people arbitrarily, etc. On the other hand, we could have a society with a public sector much larger than we have now that has all the freedoms of a modern democracy. Belgium, for example, has a public sector almost twice the size of the United States as a proportion of GDP, and has much more extensive health care, unemployment, and pension programs. Yet Belgian citizens enjoy essentially the same rights and liberties as Americans. We see very few Belgian political refugees applying for asylum in the U.S. because they are oppressed in their homeland."

Fallacy: A dicto simpliciter fallacy.
diplomat61 (223 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
The purpose of government is to ensure the health, wealth and general well-being of all its citizens, this includes protecting the weak from the strong. These goods are delivered as schools, hospitals, roads and other infrastructure, clean water, health and safety legislation, emergency services and so on. An enforcement mechanism is also necessary to discourage/punish those who think they can act a way that disadvantages the majority.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
TGM I had to look up that fallacy, but I see now that it is the fallacy of making a sweeping generalization. For example: ""Christians generally dislike atheists. You are a Christian, so you must dislike atheists."

How does this fallacy apply to the quote you provided?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
"So the size and extent of government activity, by itself, tells us nothing about how free or oppressive a society is. The necessary trade-off between government size and citizen’s freedom simply does not exist. And the reason it does not exist is because many of the most common activities of the modern state – building roads and highways, putting out fires, fighting disease, treating our sewage, providing college loans, funding basic scientific research, providing medical care for the elderly, supplying clean water, feeding the poor, providing parks and recreational facilities, subsidizing farmers, educating our children, forecasting the weather, sending out Social Security checks, and so on – are not inherently coercive or oppressive at all. So it is simply mistaken to automatically equate more government with less freedom"

Fallacy: False premises, because they cost, they do reduce freedom by infringing on property right and hence the right to pursue happiness unhindered.

"The minimal-government crowd uses this “more government = less freedom” formula to make all sorts of alarmist claims. For example, some suggest that every increase in government power is a step down the road to totalitarianism and repression. This is a favorite argument of many conservatives and they use it to oppose even small and seemingly reasonable increases in government programs or regulations. For example, they argue that if we allow the government to insist on background checks to buy guns, this will lead to mandatory gun registration, which will eventually lead to confiscation of guns, and this will put the government in a position to repress a disarmed and helpless citizenry..."

Fallacy: Straw man, as demonstrated by the fact that they say "some argue..."

"What anti-government zealots fail to appreciate is that when our democratic government restricts people’s behavior, this is usually a very good thing. We want the government to restrict the freedom of many people – people who would otherwise do a great deal of damage to us, our families, and our society. We don’t want burglars free to rob, or rapists free to attack women, or murders free to kill people. Nor do we want shady businessmen free to defraud investors and customers, or factories free to dump poisons in our air and water, or drug companies free to sell dangerous or worthless medicines. To create an ordered, prosperous, and just society – something we all want – we inevitably have to have a government that will not let everyone do what they want. In short, restricting some people’s freedom is in the public interest. Naturally, we don’t always agree on when these coercive measures are justified. Sometimes the harm to individuals may not be worth the gains to the public interest. But while we can disagree on such matters, what is not disputable is that oftentimes it is entirely legitimate to restrict people's freedom in pursuit of the public interest – and that we are all much safer and better off for it."

Fallacies: Straw man (law enforcement is part of the small government ideal), irrelevance (the issues being discussed here do *not* justify a liberal government), false dichotomy (either rapists running around free to rape everywhere or government control)

"But in virtually every case in which government tries to regulate the behavior of ordinary citizens, it does so for the same reason it restricts the freedom of criminals – to prevent harm and to promote the good of society as a whole. When people's actions only affect themselves, we usually could care less what they do. But when individuals’ actions begin to harm others, then we do care and we want to stop it. No one cares if you smoke in your own home; but if you do it in a public place your secondhand smoke can harm others – as has been shown by numerous studies."

Fallacy: Here a category error is made: "to prevent harm and to promote the good of society as a whole". In fact, in the case of the criminal law, it is "to prevent harm" exclusively, and in the case of economic control, it is always "to promote the good of society as a whole". In addition, the Nirvana fallacy is made- we are considering a government where actions have their intended consequences; is this realistic? How so?

"Perhaps the best example of this kind of issue has been motorcycle helmet laws – which have become a lightening rod for pro-freedom/anti-government activists. For them, this is the archetypal example of government bureaucrats interfering with our right to make our own decisions about our lives. If riders want to increase their chances of dying in a crash, that’s their own business – the government should mind its own business. But the problem here is not so much the preventable deaths of these riders. The problem is that often they don’t die. Motorcycle riders without helmets typically experience more frequent and more severe head injuries in accidents, which can often mean prolonged and expensive stays in hospitals and nursing homes. And this doesn’t just affect them; it affects all us in terms of higher insurance costs, and increased government health care expenditures. For example, before enacting its universal helmet law in 1991, California’s state medical program paid out $40 million for treatment of motorcycle-related head injuries. After passage of the law, that figure dropped to $24 million. Also, a National Highway Traffic Administration study has shown that if all states had mandated 100% helmet usage between 1984 and 1996, the total cost savings over those 13 years would have been $4,638,173,956.8 This is money that came out of all our pockets and could have been put to better use. As Judith Lee Stone, president of Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety, has observed: “Citizens must fight for every penny at the state government level and recognize the trade-offs where they exist. In the case of motorcycle helmet laws, clearly the money spent on head injuries means that less money will be available to pay police officers or teachers.”9 And as one state senator, John Cullerton of Illinois, has concluded: “On behalf of the taxpayers I represent, I must ask: Is it worth spending these millions of dollars to pay for the wind in the hair of motorcyclists? My answer is No.”10 And yet in spite of the large public costs being imposed on taxpayers by the absence of these laws, the Republican Congress repealed federal incentives to the states to adopt these laws in 1995. As a result of this action and the growing power of conservatives in state legislatures, more states have been repealing and weakening their helmet laws, and now only 20 states have laws that cover all riders. We are all worse off for this."

Fallacy: circulus in probando, the argument here is that because the government exists and takes care of healthcare, it must exist to force people to wear helmets. The logical absurdity of this argument for government is clear. Again, Nirvana fallacy also present: you cannot mandate 100% use of motorcycle helmets. Finally, insurance premiums are a red herring, since motorcycle insurance can be issued on the basis of wearing a helmet etc. and health insurance companies can adjust for such risk factors.

"One must stop on the command of an inanimate red light or stop sign, yield to other drivers in a number of circumstances, drive at prescribed speeds (a maximum speed imposed everywhere, though at different levels place by place, and a minimum speed set on some highways). We are told where we cannot drive (the wrong way on one-way streets, the sidewalk, certain bus lanes, certain downtown areas at certain times). …The very vehicle must be licensed, and the license periodically renewed. A car must have a mandated quantity and kind of lights, mirrors, windshield wipers, and unobstructed windows. Its width and turning capacity are determined by the state. It must have functioning brakes, mufflers, horn, and other parts. It must pass pollution tests. The car itself and its action upon others must be insured to prescribed levels. The accumulation of minor impositions is really quite staggering when one stops to add them up. … How can we really be free when we are continually triggered to obey on so many fronts?11
But then Wills concludes, “Actually, these rules are immensely liberating.” He explains that without these elaborate controls on our behavior, the traffic system would break down and we would not be free to drive anywhere. “If we all woke every morning, took out cars of uncertain performance, and tried to drive every which way, not heeding (nonexistent) signs or a right-side requirement, any speed laws or rules of precedence at crossings, we would either be crashing constantly, or would be immobilized by a fear of crashing or being crashed into.”12 In other words, without all those coercive traffic laws, we really wouldn’t be free to drive. And such rules are not an example of “Big Brother” telling us what to do, but of “us” telling us what to do. They are not a form of dictatorial coercion; but a form of mutual coercion, decided on in a democratic manner. Without these kinds of democratically generated rules, we would lack the social order necessary for us to be free to go about our business."

Fallacies: False dichotomy, it is assumed that the only alternative to government enforcing these rules is chaos, whereas in fact there could be other ways of ensuring safe cars etc. for starters, a company would be *more* liable for a car that fails if it didn't have a regulator to say "it's good to go". Such regulations encourage companies to consider their responsibility to be passing the tests, not providing safe cars. Another circulus in probando fallacy too- government owns the roads. If this weren't the case, road laws could be enforced by the owners of the roads themselves.

"We can see a similar liberating function of government rules at work in many other areas. For example, we are free to breathe clean air and drink untainted water only because environmental laws prevent the numerous private activities that could pollute those vital common resources. And our venerated “free” market would not work at all without elaborate government rules governing economic behavior, including complex laws about contracts, property rights, fraud, debt collection, and so forth. (See Capitalism Requires Government.) Without these legal rules, markets would descend into chaos and cease to function effectively. We are free to participate in market activities precisely because acceptable economic actions are so highly circumscribed by government."

Fallacies: straw man, small government proponents normally do not argue against government intervention when third parties are involved, such as with clean air. Lack of evidence: the claim about capitalism requiring complex is hardly given much evidence, and the examples given, "laws about contracts, property rights, fraud, debt collection", are perfectly within the framework of small government, and constitute an a dicto simpliciter fallacy. What about all the laws about when you can loan money, which currencies you are allowed to accept or must accept etc.
diplomat61 (223 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
I think that in principle, government is good but the problem comes in the practice of it. Probably all could do better; there are some real stinkers out there (Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan, N.Korea for example) but I think most Western governments do a reasonable job.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
"TGM I had to look up that fallacy, but I see now that it is the fallacy of making a sweeping generalization. For example: ""Christians generally dislike atheists. You are a Christian, so you must dislike atheists."

How does this fallacy apply to the quote you provided?"

a dicto simplicter:

There are exactly two kinds of a dicto simpliciter:
Accident -- a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid (Where an acceptable exception is ignored.) [from general to qualified]
Converse accident -- a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter (Where an acceptable exception is eliminated or simplified.) [from qualified to general]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicto_simpliciter

I am referring to the Accident fallacy. The exceedingly oppressive low cost-government and the unoppressive expensive one are acceptable exceptions to the general rule that more government => less freedom

(Furthermore, the size of government is not necessarily defined as the cost of government. Under Thatcher, the burden of government went down, but the real terms expenditure went up.)
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
@diplomat61 "The purpose of government is to ensure the health, wealth and general well-being of all its citizens, this includes protecting the weak from the strong. These goods are delivered as schools, hospitals, roads and other infrastructure, clean water, health and safety legislation, emergency services and so on. An enforcement mechanism is also necessary to discourage/punish those who think they can act a way that disadvantages the majority...

I think that in principle, government is good but the problem comes in the practice of it. Probably all could do better; there are some real stinkers out there (Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan, N.Korea for example) but I think most Western governments do a reasonable job."

I have to say, this is drearily banal. Why, why, why? You've not said why the government has that purpose nor why its programs in roads and health are necessary to best achieve that nor why it is justified to say that they do a "reasonable job" and by what standard you're measuring it.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
btw, do I win?
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
I think the notion of "oppressive government" might be in the mind of the beholder. Perhaps so are "rights". TGM you like to speak of property rights, but for others property is "theft".
I am not so sure that the fallacy of a dicto simplicter was present in the quote you provided:
"But it is a mistake to believe that the size or extent of government has anything to do with how oppressive it is. For example, you could have a country with a minimal public sector that was very repressive to its citizens. It would have low taxes, few social service programs, and hardly any regulations on business. But it could also be incredibly oppressive – allowing only one-party elections, banning free speech, muzzling the press, preventing freedom of assembly, jailing people arbitrarily, etc. On the other hand, we could have a society with a public sector much larger than we have now that has all the freedoms of a modern democracy. Belgium, for example, has a public sector almost twice the size of the United States as a proportion of GDP, and has much more extensive health care, unemployment, and pension programs. Yet Belgian citizens enjoy essentially the same rights and liberties as Americans. We see very few Belgian political refugees applying for asylum in the U.S. because they are oppressed in their homeland."

I think the author was arguing that what we generally consider to be "oppressive" (in the sense of general rule of thumb, for example Stalinist Russia) does not necessarily follows from big government. If we accept the authors notion of oppressive he has made a reasonable point. Clearly you don't accept his notion of "oppressive" which is why I think concepts like "oppression" and "rights" exist in the mind of the beholder.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
He claims that "But it is a mistake to believe that the size or extent of government has anything to do with how oppressive it is."

By providing two examples that only prove:

"But it is a mistake to believe that the size or extent of government is the only factor determining how oppressive it is."
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Regarding property rights, I maintain that it is logically inconsistent to deny them.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
I see what you are saying. The key flaw is the phrase "*anything* to do with how oppressive it is". I can see that if a government is oppressive, that the larger it becomes then perhaps the more oppressive it could become. In which case the size of the government would have a bearing on the level of oppression. Possibly though we are being a bit pedantic though.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
I think the point the author might be trying to make is that it is not the size of the government that matters but rather the government's policies (in determining the level of oppression, whether big government or small).
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Well, the policies are what determine the size of the government, of course. There is a minimum size of government for an oppressive dictatorship to be stable, for example.

His central claim, the whole way through is that "But it is a mistake to believe that the size or extent of government has anything to do with how oppressive it is." The evidence he provides cannot back up that claim.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
re pedantry, frankly, in logic, it is necessary. My favourite example is the four terms one: any syllogism must have a common term:

All cats are mammals
Jess is a cat
therefore Jess is a mammal

has the middle term "cat"

Whereas:

John is to the right of Peter
Peter is to the right of Paul
Therefore John is to the right of Paul

Is not valid, because "Peter" and "to the right of Peter" are not common terms.

And indeed, they could be sitting around a table.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
We could have two alternative governments, both the same size. One would legalize gay marriage, while the other would make homosexuality punishable by death. In my mind the the second is more oppressive. Alternatively the first would double the number of nurses working in public hospitals thus making a larger government (if only in terms of expenditure). I still think the second government would be more oppressive.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
Pedantry is necessary in logic in the sense you are talking about. But when people are talking we need to read between the lines sometimes and deal with the message that is being communicated.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
"We could have two alternative governments, both the same size. One would legalize gay marriage, while the other would make homosexuality punishable by death. In my mind the the second is more oppressive. Alternatively the first would double the number of nurses working in public hospitals thus making a larger government (if only in terms of expenditure). I still think the second government would be more oppressive."

Yes, because the burden of regulation is not necessarily proportional to the cost of enforcing it, and taxation isn't the only form of burden of government. Small government proponents such as myself do not claim that the government's size should be measured by the amount of money it spends however, and the general maxim that you are less free with a bigger government still holds.

The argument he makes doesn't get to the heart of the matter at hand.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
When you say big government, you means big regulation, rather than the number of government employees? Is that right?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
I mean "big" regulation as well as heavy taxes, yes.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
So maybe in my example the government which punished homosexuality was actually the "bigger" of the two governments because it had the greater regulation of society. This might invalidate my example.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Yes, the important question of the size of government is how involved in people's lives they become.
diplomat61 (223 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
@Ghost
"I have to say, this is drearily banal."
I have to say tough titty. My view of the situation is clear and succinct. You cannot pretend that you did not understand.

"You've not said why the government has that purpose"
because society has developed it that way. Individuals cannot provide all of those things themselves so created a mechanism - government - to do so for them, as part of a group.

"why its programs in roads and health are necessary to best achieve that"
Who else is going to build roads and provide universal health care? Show me a successful economy that lacks roads, ports, airports, power grid, education system, water, legal system, etc. etc.

"why it is justified to say that they do a "reasonable job" and by what standard you're measuring it."
My opinion from keeping informed of international news. Can you tell of a "Western" country with major problems in say health, education and policing simulatainously? Greece is probably bottom of the pack at the moment.
diplomat61 (223 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
"Yes, the important question of the size of government is how involved in people's lives they become. "
Agree.
diplomat61 (223 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
I am in favour of governments being as small as possible in tax, regulation and limitation of freedom. The debate of course is a) what are their areas of responsibility and b) what is as small as possible.

As I mentioned above I think the key areas are education, health & safety, public infrastructure (to enable wealth generation), security (police & defence) and legal system to support these things. These should be delivered at lowest possible level that balances voter choice and cost efficiency; your street cannot run its own army for example.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
"because society has developed it that way. Individuals cannot provide all of those things themselves so created a mechanism - government - to do so for them, as part of a group"

Victorian Britain saw the development of an Imperialistic power; communist China saw the development of a murderous dictator; modern day Iran has developed a sexist theocracy. I take it that because they have been 'developed' they are all good?

"Who else is going to build roads"

Who built the roads in America at a greater real cost than modern roads (considering that people were poorer)? Private citizens.

"provide universal health care?"

Fraternal societies in America used to provide working men access to a doctor for about 1 day's pay a pop, before they were banned. Sure, they were rudimentary, but everyone could afford healthcare? Why is healthcare some kind of right anyway?

"roads, ports, airports, power grid, education system, water, legal system, etc."

Excluding the legal system, these have all been provided for by private individuals before.

""why it is justified to say that they do a "reasonable job" and by what standard you're measuring it."
My opinion from keeping informed of international news. Can you tell of a "Western" country with major problems in say health, education and policing simulatainously? Greece is probably bottom of the pack at the moment."

That doesn't answer the question. You need to compare government to, for instance, free enterprise. The private health providers of Singapore and America (at least, these are the only substantial private systems I know of) do a better service per dollar than any state system I know of. I know no exception to the rule that private education is superior to government education- even when the private education is funded by parents of children in the slums of Bombay. Policing is pitiful: some UK conviction rates:

rape: 5.5%
robbery: 8.9%
serious woundings: 9.7%

hardly a resounding success, and look at how civil liberties have been attacked in Britain in recent years!
LordVipor (566 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
what is best, lower individual income tax or lower corporation profit tax?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
There should be no corporation tax, because it has a tendency to hide the tax burden.
LordVipor (566 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
@ TGM, but do you think individual income tax should be greatly increased?

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