It's wrong to give anyone priorities because of race. I mean, don't we want a color blind society where everyone is treated the same? Isn't that the goal?

Centurian: But the problem is there's affirmative action, but no move to equalize the economic situation. The symptoms are being treated, but the cause is being ignored.

And the Viet immigrants and Japanese descendants of the Internment Camps in California, for instance? If anything, by the logic of former wrongs, they should be getting help into college.

One side of my family nearly half the people languished in Internment Camps for years. Where's the Japanese quota for UC Berkeley? Where's the "One or more relative(s) spent time in an internment camp" scholarship?

There are none. And it wouldn't be fair if there were.

No Pandaseric it wouldn't because they don't need it. I'm talking about necessity.

@Invictus. Your right that is the goal but we aren't there yet.

Should you Americans turn a blind eye to all the high proportion of African American's in prison? The right would argue that they each did a crime and thus deserve to be in prison (like not getting high enough marks to be let into Invictus' university). They are right. But as a demographic they are there not because they have criminal tendencies (that would just be racist). Surely you must agree that they are there because of a society of poverty and racism that holds them back. That needs to be addressed. It can't be ignored for the sake of a priviledged white perception of "equality".

Poverty yes. Poverty because Johnson's Great Society and public housing anchored the slums and stifled upward social mobility.

And culture. Too many black children are from single parent families, it's mainstream acceptable. It used to be bastard was a bad thing. These insular inner city societies are ruled by the gangs because the family is dead. The decay of real values and just a sense of right and wrong are the true problems, and they certainly won't be fixed by MORE government intervention.

as far as i know we dont have affirmative action in australia(do we?) and as a member of the largest tribe in the most common socio economic group i dont really know what its like to be a minority- im white middle class. Im sure the States has its fair share of undeserving minorities studenst/public sector contractors/etc and they also have an equal number of complaining middle class whites who probably like to beat up the issue as unfair on them personally and the whole reason they arent as successful as they wish to be.

iin a perfect world we should need Afff Action and in that world we would fund inner city schools well and we wouldnt have the old boys network for the rich upper caste or racism etc

but we dont live in that world so maybe a bit off AA is ok as long as it has a life span and doesnt disavantage non wealthy groups overly (the wealthy i dont care about at all, they can look after themselves, its truly what they are good at anyway),

we shouldnt go overboard like malaysia but. malaysia has taken it to the extreme, the majority group- muslim ethnic malays get all the advantages at uni, housing loans, and a whole variety of leg ups in life, the richer chinese commnuity has the money and the old boys network to help themselves but the poorest group in malaysia- the indian malays are at the bottom of the pile.

Centurian: All the West Coast Asians I know in good schools worked for it. Why should minorities get an advantage over them?

Addition: One girl I knew couldn't afford a UC tuition and she knew it. Her answer was WORK HARD ENOUGH TO GET A FULL-RIDE SCHOLARSHIP.

I agree totally Sean. As for you Invictus, blaming family values? You aren't getting us anywhere are you?

Did she grow up in developing world conditions Pandarsenic? Like reserve natives?

Not quite that bad, but her mother was pregnant with her while still a teenager and her father was a drug dealer. Her father left soon after.

That severe enough for you?

What do you mean I'm not getting us anywhere. You can't believe that the social decay in the inner cities is irrelevant to the root problems there.

Come on.

I read a cartoon that I thought eloquently summed up a pro-affirmative action argument. I can't find it anymore so I'll have to just describe it to you as best I can.

In the first panel, we see a black person giving a boost to a white person on to a high ledge. In the second panel we see the white person sitting on the ledge with the black person still on the ground but with an arm outstretched expecting the white person to help pull him up. To which the white person replies something like, "Hey, I got up here on my own."

Yes, Invictus, in Canada you can say Native Americans, because American doesn't refer to the States but rather the continent in this sense. First Nations is probably more politically correct.

Invictus, you had an interesting point about the "black culture", and the lack of the nuclear family and whatnot, and how they are in a perpetual cycle because their poverty has become mainstream for them. Is this not a reason for affirmative action? Surely as more African Americans are educated the more will escape poverty, break the cycle, and set the next generation on a course for success?

This is a thorny issue and as I type I really don't know which side of the argument I support. In the UK we have a policy of requiring universities to take students from a cross section of our communities even if that means a child with lesser grades from a poor area takes the place of a child with better grades from a more affluent area. Now on the face of it I think this is wrong, it wasn't the richer kids fault that he came from a better background and he has every right to feel agreived. However the child from the poorer background may be an excellent student who could have far outstriped his richer 'rival' had he had the same opportunities in younger years. Trying to give the same opportunities to our young people regardless of social background and trying to narrow the education devide seems like a emmeniently sensible thing to be doing.

As I finish writing I'm still not sure which side of the argument I support.

chris from www.trollscansing.eu

haha

I have no idea what you mean by that man.

I guess I'm rather biased being a healthy white middle-class male with a good state education, but anyway...
I do not agree with it. Racial Equality is should be the target, and that means treating people of every race as equal.
Just because I come from the majority, why should I be penalized?

I agree fully with figlesquidge. I know all too well what favouritism does to a country. Minorities should be looked after, not favouritised. Majorities should not throw their weight around unfairly, they should get their fair say and nothing more.

The target shouldn't be 'equality'. The fact is, other factors outside the government make sure 'equality' can never be achieved between one group and another. It has nothing to do with people 'not working hard enough'.

What we should be striving for is Equity; making up for imbalaces to allow all groups and all people an equal footing from which to pursue happinness.

To counter the: 'it was the sins of my forefathers!'

Yes, you're exactly right. Your great-great-grandfather oppressed and stole from others and not you, so you should not feel sorry.

But the reality is, you are STILL benefitting from the sins of your fore-fathers, and that is what needs to be changed.

Affirmative action is the best (if not perfect) way of correcting social inequalities with historical causes. It discriminates by race because people are still discriminated opportunity-wise by a racial criteria, whther conciously or not.

It is discriminatory because opportunity and upbringing is discriminatory. Once inequalities in things like education and abilities of communities are corrected, there is no more need for Affirmative Action.

But until then, I want to see the improvement and empowerment of disadvantaged communities who exist in that state because their ancestors were oppressed by my ancestors.

Don't you?

I'm ALSO Canadian by the way. :P

Are ANY of the Americans (non-hippy country people) here in favour of affirmative action?

@ sean. Yes you do have affirmative action in OZ. It mainly targets Aboriginal people.

you affirmintive action/positive discrimination to bring everyone onto the same level, so move up some move down when everyones equal you get rid of it, simple :)

"Are ANY of the Americans (non-hippy country people) here in favour of affirmative action?"
Personally I think it's bull. I have a few friends who are in favor (favour if you insist), but of course they're all receiving hefty scholarships. Many of them come from wealthy families, so I really don't see how they have been disadvantaged.
Shouldn't ability be what counts? Also, I've heard several arguments regarding poverty, isn't that what need-based scholarships are for?
And I hate being labeled racist for my position on this issue.

That is all

It's funny because both sides call the other racist, and they both have pretty good reasons too!

I think affirmative action is, as Ivo said near the start, a neccessary evil. The stories about people missing out on places suck. But its hard to do well in high school to get that scholarship if your parents are alchoholics, in prison or whatever. Thats a pretty crappy story as well.

The reason I support the affirmative action side is, as Sean pointed out, I think the rich can handle themselves.

If you had the choice to be born an upper middle class white guy or a reserve native. You were told that the native would get a bunch of perks like not paying taxes or getting easy admission, what would you choose? Are the "perks" enough?

I watched a thing on bbc world a while back about getting into university in India. Affirmative action is done by caste over there. Two girls who went to the same school were part of two different castes, the one from a lower caste got 76% on her determining mark and the one from a higher caste got 95%. Only the one from the lower caste got into the university they both wanted.

That's hardly 'fair' by anyones standards. I'm assuming its probably similar with maybe a smaller difference in the west.

I personally think that the government should be giving serious financial aid to poorer people to make it possible for them to get into university. While at the same time not favouring them so strongly that a C-student can get into one of the best universities. Doesn't it destroy the essential competetive edge of university applications? You basically end up with a large group of people who are not at the university's standard.

Hey, Centurian, what about my high-performing friend? Once I pointed out the sucky family point, which you still use, you didn't respond.

@Pandarsenic - I think its fair to say she's an exception, She worked hard and it payed off. The majority of people in her situation (non-white, impoverished, poor community, exposed to drugs etc...) aren't able to work through it. Its ultimately a further disadvantage that makes less people who are in her situation able to get into university.

My belief - People are simply attempting to solve a problem at the wrong point. I don't believe that the solution to people of different ethnicities being an unbalanced minority at university level means that you have to force universities to accept quotas by ethnicity. I think that time and effort would be better spent attempting to get schools and people within poorer areas to value education more, stabilize family environments, improve the quality of the schools and to provide general assitance to people in those worse situations. Ideally this would solve the problems that universities attempt to solve with ethnicity quotas.

I also think its worth pointing out that it isn't the white middle-class who lose out in the US. Its the poor white people (who do exist actually). Those who are exposed to much of the problems that people attempt to solve with ethnicity quotas but don't gain the benefits of an easier ride to university. Its another problem that I think could be fixed by forming effective programs in poorer neighbourhoods.

"The reason I support the affirmative action side is, as Sean pointed out, I think the rich can handle themselves."
Once again, working under the assumption that all white people are rich, and all non-white people are poor.