I'm much more curious why the Pope prays to Mary, Paul, Peter, etc...he's pretty much spends more time praying to other people than he does to his "god"...

The ancients are jealous...they want their pantheon back...

Also curious why Ringo always get's left out...just sayin'..

Wise for the Catholics and specifically Francis to say, but Atheists won't buy it.

Broader question: do you think Catholic bias against atheists is stronger, or atheist bias against Christians? Speaking personally, I find it extremely gracious and promising. I'll work with anyone I think wants to do good in the world. Then again, that's why I call myself a secular humanist, not an atheists. People who identify as atheists can sometimes skew a bit evangelical about unbelief.

Seriuosly, though, taken out of context that quote is meaningless. What does the Pope mean? Atheists are *not* allies of Christ by *any* definition..."defending the dignity of man" against whom? What is the "dignity of man" and who is attacking it?

Well, that's a good question. By "dignity of man" is he making a veiled reference to traditional morality and against the mainstreaming of homosexuality? In that way he could be inviting more conservative atheists to defend the family against moral liberalization, which he views as a threat to "the dignity of man," in which case, I'd be less enthused.

One can be allies on a specific topic but still have extremely different and opposing views on another. The idea that Christianity (or Catholicism) wants to better mankind and alleviate human suffering by improving the human condition the world wide and that Atheism fully supports making the world a better place by eliminating poverty and working through secular means to improve the world makes them allies in the goal of making the world a better place by eliminating poverty and suffering. The dignity of man is quite simply, the ability for every man woman or child to hold their head up high and not be downtrodden or oppressed. And yes, Christianity and Atheism are allies in that struggle. The majority of humanity is allied in that struggle. Only the oppressors: the power hungry madman run regimes aren't allies in that fight.

" Atheists are *not* allies of Christ by *any* definition..."

I don't understand this comment Krellin. Atheists and Christians can get along perfectly well..

Apparently you don't' know the definition of atheist...

The Pope's purpose (I think) is to further Christ, to further the kingdom of God on earth. This is the primary function of the Church, is it not? Therefore, how can you ally with atheists in this endeavor? *Anything* the church does should be to support this end goal..

Atheists don't believe in God. It doesn't mean that they think people who believe in God are stupid, or primitive. Those are called 'extremists'.

I disagree that the Pope's purpose is to convert people.

Well, if the Pope's purpose *is* to convert people, wouldn't one effective way of doing that be to approach people who are trying to make the world a better place and demonstrate to them that you may share some of their values? It's hard to convert atheists with the message, "Atheists, you're terrible people, so you should join us." Far easier to convert them with the message, "Atheists, you're doing some good things. Let us help out. And while we're helping, let us explain to you what we *really* believe."

The purpose of the Church is not to convert people, but to serve those who do believe and help alleviate the sufferings of others. There are various factions whose purpose is to convert, but not the Pope.

Personally? Its an excellent political move. Now any atheists attacking the Church will look like utter assholes after the olive branch Francis just offered them.

+1 hecks

"This is the primary function of the Church, is it not? "

Krells, my friend, please read my post of how apparent opponents can be allies for a cause but not in toto. Having a clear overarching purpose doesn't make it your only purpose. If it did, we wouldn't call it a primary purpose (which implies there are secondary and possibly tertiary ones) but would instead call it the only purpose or just the purpose.

A major purpose at either a primary or secondary level is to improve every persons self-worth and life as a whole. Int hat, the Church and Atheism, on the whole, share a common purpose. The Catholic Church (and Lutherans and Methodists and Episcopalians and on and on...) do many good things towards alleviating and ending human suffering, hunger, homelessness, and disease. Most atheists (who as a whole are not self centered ego centric eil creatures) also desire to end these sufferings of mankind. So in that regard, they are allies of each other.

"Church is not to convert people, but to serve those who do believe and help alleviate the sufferings of others. " Really - you must have a different Bible than I. I know, I know...asking the Cathloic church to be based upon the Bible is an archiac, idiotic suggestion...

@Draug and others..."common purposes" aside, I don't see *any* examples of Big J roling about Jerusalem hooking up with various heathens who, in part, had a common purpose...the church is supposed to follow Christ's example, not pervert it. You don't defeat atheism by partnering with it when it's convenient. Christ would be rolling over in his grave if he read this thread...er...pun intended...

Big J hung out with all kinds of heathens. Tax collectors, hookers, salty fishermen, gentiles... you name it.

@krellin - You once said you admired me for trying to get back to the roots of my faith and be closer to God. Then believ me when I tell you that, despite certain denominations love of picking and choosing versus, Jesus served the poor and sick and demonstrated his love for mankind through actions, not brow beating. He *always* came into a community and saw to their sick and poor before sitting down to teach and never cajoled or tried to force anyone to join him (even the first of his disciples were simply told "come with me and I will make you fishers of men" and not brow beat). When asked what one needed to do, he would tell them, but his lessons were never to non-believers who hadn't expressed a desire to learn more.

@krellin - As hecks said, Christ hung out with all kinds of people viewed as the scum of the earth by the righteous of the day. Mary Magdelene, his favorite of all his female followers, was a prostitute. In fact, her reputation and the "wastying" of the nard was a serious point of contention between Him and Judas (although Judas really hated the perfume being wasted cause he wanted to sell it and skim money off the top).

Luke 19, wherein Big J rolls about Jerico hooking up with various heathens
1 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly. 7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner." 8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." 9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.

Also, Mark 2:13-17, wherein he hangs out with publicans and sinners

13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them. 14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Hanging out with the athiests in order to instruct them is far different than setting up a business adventure...

http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/6-17.htm Read commentary...

"Mary Magdelene, his favorite of all his female followers, was a prostitute"

*WAS* a prostitute...one presume *past* tense once she started hangin' with J-Man.

How can this be a bad thing? A Pope willing to work with those he has to for the betterment of Catholics. That seems like a respectable thing actually.

"Hanging out with the athiests in order to instruct them is far different than setting up a business adventure..."

Nobody's saying let's buy a Sonic franchise together, but if you want to recruit people who aren't part of your organization and share your values, a good way to start is by doing things with those people that reflect those shared values.

Like... okay, the Catholic Church does a lot of hunger relief work. Rotary International does a lot of hunger relief work. As a secularist, I support Rotary International. But if the Catholic Church approached Rotary International and said, "Hey, let's align our programs so that they work more effectively together" would it make me respect the Catholic Church a little more, and maybe be that little bit more open to their message? Yeah, I think I would.

This pope has been very strong out the gate. Saying things like taking care of the poor, "don't fly from Argentina to see me - give that to the poor!", loving other people, allying with other (non-)faiths to accomplish similar goals.... If this were Buddhism, I'd say Pope John Paul II had been reincarnated.