Actually, Pete never cheated. He never bet against a team he was a member of and most of us in Cinci believe Selig has it in for him and it is purely political. I bet Rose slept with Selig's daughters or wife or all of them. :-)

Pete Rose should be in the Hall. So should Barry Bonds. Fuck, Barry Bonds just about had a hall of fame career before his transformation into a raging juicer. He is by far the greatest baseball player of our generation (although a lot of it was when I was too young to appreciate it and even more so for you I guess).

The correlation between increased performance and PEDs isn't as straight and well defined as the media presents it. Barry Bonds was an otherworldly baseball player and to attribute that to drugs is grossly overestimating the power of the drugs.

And going beyond that. You don't think baseball players of the past took all sorts of amphetamines?

Somewhat related:
Dock Ellis pitching a no hitted on LSD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14

GO LANCE!!!!!!!

Should Whitey Ford (cut the ball with his wedding ring), Gaylord Perry (doctoring baseballs), Joe Niekro (doctoring baseballs), or George Brett (pine tar) also be excluded from the Hall of Fame for cheating? I'd also guess that nearly all pre-war players cheated in some way or another, including Ty Cobb, who would sharpen his spikes so fielders wouldn't want to try and tag him out. Cheaters all, according to the rules of baseball.

@Draug: That's why I said "cheating" and not cheating. I love Pete and I love the Reds… I go to a bunch of games every year. I was there on his 25th anniversary of the record breaking hit, which I think was the first time he came back to the stadium since he got banned. The day Bud Selig leaves, he should be in the Hall of Fame.

@Yonni: My high school coach (Chris Estep, look up his career, it sucked…) played with Barry in Pittsburgh and essentially portrays him as a stick. He was an excellent, semi-powerful hitter that snuck shots over the wall, all homers in the same way in the statbook. Barry then made some revolutionary strides in workout techniques, finding ways to actually make your face more muscular, which is the obvious explanation for the fact that his head doubled in size - and has, since he retired, found a way to shrink his head dramatically - not that he did steroids. He was great - 500 homer guy - before juicing up, but he was not a record setter, and if he gets into the Hall of Fame, he should not be recognized as the home run leader.

Yonni, biggest Red Sox fan in the world right here, very big Reds fan too, and I don't want Ortiz or Manny Ramirez in the HoF because they both did it too. They'll get in because they didn't set any records. Barry's case is much more public, and because he would not have set that record without drugs, he shouldn't have it.

I wish the record would stay with Hank Aaron, or better yet, I wish I could go back in time and keep Ken Griffey Jr. from getting hurt so many times, because he would have set that record pretty easily. He and Babe are the best power hitters in history that I know about.

Hank Aaron had to be scared of two white guys running onto the field and tackling him when he hit his record homer. Barry had to be scared of being unable to keep himself from lying to the whole world. Big difference.

Ahhh….beautiful. Let’s examine this post by bo_sox: A shouldn’t be in Hall of Fame because B can’t be.
His post, without specificying it clearly, is trying to say that A and B are equal – great performers who both got caught cheating. (Never mind the facts). It further implies (without stating directly) that he must think B should be allowed in…his indignation is that A shouldn’t be allowed in until B is allowed. Certainly nowhere does he say, “A and B are both bad and should be kept out…

Now, this post is another wonderful look at the *selective* indignation and moral fortitude of bo_sox…and I dare say a great many of the frequent posters on WebDip forums. Instead of taking a morally consistent stance and suggesting that all evil be *punished* equally, he instead, being a Red Sox fan, is really advocating for the blind-eye to be turned to his favorite rule breaker…and trying to piggy-back on the blind eye baseball may turn to someone he hates as precedence, instead of say rule-breaking is rule breaking and consequences must follow equally for all.

It is *very much* akin to the selective indignation and outrage on these forums. How often we see those who say there should be *no* name calling, no hatred of others, etc…I think bo_sox might fit in to this Goldilocks view of the world at times…who then, upon seeing someone or something they hate will willfully, and with great vengeance, some after people, ideas, parties, religions, etc with the full bile of their belly, in stark contrast to their previously stated goals of peaceful uniformity among mankind.

Ahhh…keep up the good work, you selectively outraged fools!

Hey krellin

Let's ignore the whole home run record and just look at Bonds' career as a whole. I have a feeling you haven't look at his stats in a little while because they are holy-shit insane.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1109&position=OF

By age 30 he had already accumulated as 75 WAR as a fantastic hitter, a great fielder, and a deamon on the basepaths. (60-70 WAR is generally around the level where fringe HOF'ers sit, iirc).

And if you are inclinded to talk about records, he was the 2nd player to reach the 40-40 club. He was INSANE. Leaving him out of the hall of fame would be a god damn travesty.

Thank you krellin, for leaving me without the need to argue with you, for the fact that a.) Pete Rose never played for Boston, and b.) I don't give a fuck what you think.

Yonni, his career was Hall of Fame worthy until he did drugs. It's like being employee of the month ten times straight and then stealing from the register for one month and make more money. They don't find out, and you go on to be employee of the month eleven more times. After you leave, they find out you stole from the register, take you to court, and you lose.

Barry Bonds cheated and broke federal law as a result of his cheating. The federal law doesn't hold him out; the cheating does. I'd guess the writers agree.

Bah, get off your moral high horse. We're celebrating the greatest baseball players ever, not judging them on their moral standards. I'd bet that a great deal of the players in the hall were complete asses.

And, yeah, the writers are idiots.

bo_sox...my bad (on who The Gambler played for)...and thank you, again, for your demonstration of SELECTIVE OUTAGE. And for that matter, SELECTIVE COMPREHENSION skills, and SELECTIVE morality in general.

But be calm...you are but a peon amongst the masses of hypocrisy.

Rose performed - by choice and in full knowledge - an act that was prohibited by Baseball, he admitted to it and agreed to the consequences. So shut the fuck about about Bonds this and cheater that. Rose is exactly where he should be - nowhere, but in the archives of Baseball villainy, where *everyone* knows his name and what he accomplished. In truth, if it had all been brushed aside, he would be far LESS well known than he is now.

So tell me, bo_sox...in your tainted world, when IS it acceptable to ignore rules and laws and morality for one person over another? Is there a hard and fast rule to your hypocrisy, something we can all apply to our lives? Or is it all just based upon your personal momentary whim?

That question, of course, is then asked to all those hear who suffer selective outrage and selectively abuse others on personal whim, who act out in great hate and rage at times while claiming to be peaceful and rational, anti-hate people.

Mwaaa haa haaaa....delicious...

You guys are going to get docked for posting cheating accusations in the forums.

@krellin - Rose still holds the record for the most career hits. Somehow, I think he could have been squeeky clean and would very much be remembered. As far as his breaking the rule, did he? The rule didn't exist except when it came to your own team. He never broke the rule. But MLB changed the rule after the fact so they could "convist" him. The fact is, in a court of law, that would never have held up. But baseball sin't a court and Rose has opted not to pursue it there because of other personal issues involving his infidelity that would certainly come out (it's well known in Cinci that he was a womanizer).

Rose still holds....what??? You know how many people are in the Hall of Fame that you have never heard of unless you are a baseball fan? My point is that he is far more famous for his villiany than he ever would have been for his actual accomplishments. I'm not even casting a moral judgement on this...just having fun with it.

That being said, the world is full of "Halls of Fame" full of people you have never, and will never, hear of, and for the most part nobody cares...Just sayin...

It's NOT a cheating accusation if it's TRUE. Geesh...Rose admitted it, AS DID SMCHEATBRIDE! Mwaaa ha ha ha ha!!!

No, Rose never admitted to breaking the rule. I'm from Cinci. I know what he did and didn't admit to doing. He did the equivalent to pleading no contest. That is an admission of the facts presented, not admitting to the "crime" he was charged with. He admitted to betting on baseball games. But the rule clearly stated baseball games in which one could alter the outcome. He never admitted to doing that.

But more to the point, would it have affected his career 4256 of 4256 hits? Honeslty. Bonds used steroids. They gave him a boost. Yet he gets into the hall of fame *and* keeps his 762 home run record?

We in Cinci have pretty much accepted that, until someone takes us up on the million dollar bounty on Bud Selig, Rose is out. But Barry should be out as well. His indiscretion allowed him to perform better than he might otherwise. Rose's had no such affect on his career.

Draug...honestly, I think Rose should be in the Hall of Fame, and Bonds, as well as a great number of others, do not belong there. Won't keep me from stirring the pot, though! :)

Support Bosox. That is all.

@Yonni: "And, yeah, the writers are idiots." They vote too… unfortunate. I could never understand why Reggie didn't get in on his first ballot.

@krellin: Go away please. You know nothing about baseball quite obviously. You know nothing about anything quite obviously.

@Draug.. your post is just about perfect. +1. Rose may or may not have cheated to the extent of which he is accused yet is out of the Hall for life as long as Bud Asshole Selig is around. Bonds cheated to the point that he shattered records that he didn't earn and put on 400 pounds he didn't eat, but he's free to keep the records that his cheating earned him. Rose keeps his records and is kept out of the Hall of Fame because of his managerial career - the exact thing that wasn't going to get him into the Hall of Fame in the first place.

I know, krellin. And as much as I am standing up for him, he is scum for other reasons (I personally know a couple once young ladies, now older, who can describe in great detail certain aspects of his anatomy - aspects only his wife should know about).

When I see tapes of Pete Rose, he looks very grim and seems like a real cocky guy at times. I can see the attitude in him. I don't mind Bonds' attitude in the same way I don't mind most superstar attitudes, and that's for a simple reason: they are all damn good at what they do. Babe Ruth bragged too. If you're a hell of a good plumber, you might brag about it - might be weird, but I can't brag about it. That's why I don't mind it.

It's no different with the hotshot software geeks. When you do something very well that only 1 or 2 percent of the population can even claim to compete with you in, you tend to be cocky about it.

bo_sox...you incoherent, blithering fool...I know a great deal more about most things than you even know exist. Your ability to construct...or deconstruct...a logical argument is on par with Obiwans, or a brain-dead retard (whichever you find more insulting). Couple this with the fact that you have no sense of humor, don't appreciate sarcasm or mockery...and it jut makes you a waste of oxygen...

The spelling errors are included intentionally to make sure I am speaking on your level...well, still many levels above, actually...but I think you *might* understand...

"The spelling errors are included intentionally to make sure I am speaking on your level...well, still many levels above, actually...but I think you *might* understand…"

Lol… I love your excuses krellin. Whenever you insult me, I feel like muting you, and then I realize how mindless and brainfucked you must be to criticize everyone that's not you and calling them an idiot. Oh, genius krellin, enlighten me… how do you live with yourself in such a mannre? Oh, I misspelled manner, but I did it on porpoise. And porpoise isn't the same as purpose, but I spelled it that way on purpose. Whaddaya thinik? See, I did it again. Am I to your level, oh graet one? One more for good measuer. And maybe one more too.

heh heh heh....God, you are so easy to manipulate bo_sox...

A puppet for my mindfucking...

Let's go Curt Schilling, Craig Biggio, and childhood hero...

MIKE! PI-A-ZZA! *CLAP! CLAP! CLAP-CLAP-CLAP!*

One of the best postseason pitchers ever, 3,000 hit Biggio, and best hittng catcher ever in Piazza, with the most HRs by a catcher and one of the highest RBI and BA totals. :)

PERFECTLY good choices instead of Bonds, Clemens or Bonds!

Piazza, Biggio, Schilling should all get in… Sosa, Clemens, and Bonds should not.