What about the expenses all the taxpayer funded welfare programs incur by having to support a large influx of impoverished unskilled laborers and their children?

I disagree to the nonsensical notion of open borders that TC is advocating - I suspect he is being facetious...but i will tell you this: I can't find enough Engineers (particularly software engineers) to fill the openings I have, and it's too expensive / time consuming for a lot of companies to go through the H1B process. We need to *totally* revamp guest worker programs.

Libertarians attacking immigrants. Brilliant. I guess migrants being murdered isn't a cause for concern by the "anti-statists", nor is the free movement of labor. Nevermind that undocumented immigrants aren't eligible to receive any welfare beneifts and make the government $20 billion a year in net revenues because most are of working age.

TC you are so often so wrong about things, so it's nice to see you be entirely right about something. I would caution only to be clear about the differences between a citizen and a resident.

Does anyone know what the hell Putin is blathering on about? Such an angry troll. BAD TROLL! GO TO YOUR ROOM, PUTIN!!

Nice. Apparently, being able to think of an argument against immigration = you want to kill immigrants.

Subtle as usual, Putin.

Ha, I wholeheartedly +1ed TC, what a surprise...

Interestingly enough, the Commies were known for CLOSED borders...TO KEEP THEIR PEOPLE IN!!! So Putin talking about anyone crossing any border is rather laughable! lol

Tolstoy, personally I reject the stereotype that immigrants come here to get on welfare programs.
Almost all immigrants, outside of Europeans, come to the United States from countries who have almost non-existent poverty relief.
Immigrants come here for work period.
If you look at the numbers since 2008 immigration literally stopped cold.
The welfare programs in the United States have expanded since 2008.
If immigrants came here for welfare programs they would still be coming.
The jobs dried up, and immigration did too.
The idea that immigrants come here for aid is xenophobia in my opinion.

I live in California and I hope the Supreme Court upholds the majority of Arizona's immigration laws for a couple of reasons.
First, if Arizona cops start checking immigration status like their law dictates the immigrants will flee the state, and I hope they come to California one and all.
Second, I believe the Arizona law is mostly legal, misguided as hell, but legal.
Look at what has happened in the South where immigration laws similar to Arizona's have resulted in immigrants fleeing Alabama and other states.
The farmers there can't get their berry and orchard crops harvested.
Stupid is as stupid does.

"Tolstoy, personally I reject the stereotype that immigrants come here to get on welfare programs. "

As do I. I live in California as well, and have known migrantes all my life; many of them (or more often, their children) are my friends. From my experience they all come here to work because there are no opportunities for them in their home country.

But what happens when a migrant laborer picking apples off a tree in an orchard or building the roof on a new house falls off the ladder and breaks his leg? He's been making about $50-$70/day and has no money to pay for the thosuands of dollars in medical care he needs. So who foots the bill? I know big businesses have a number of legal 'outs' to escape the workers' comp system for these kinds of things, so it's not the employer. It's the taxpayer - either directly, through MediCal, or indirectly through higher hospital costs charged on the shrinking population that still has health insurance or can afford to pay for their hospital visits (need I point to the dozens of hospitals in Southern California that have gone out of business due to unreimbursed emergency room visits by immigrants and poor citizens who can't afford to pay?).

What if the immigrant has a child while working in California? POOF! free (to the parent) food, health care, education, child care, housing subsidies, etc., etc. for 18 years, paid for by California taxpayers, since a migrant farmworker or construction worker making $50/day really can't afford to pay for any of it. That's a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars per child. Who pays? We do.

None of the immigrants I've known have come to this country for the lavish welfare benefits. But I've known few who didn't take advantage of them when they were needed and available.

The problems with the welfare programs were created by the imbeciles in Sacremento.
Immigrants have nothing to do with the problems of the welfare program.
The immigrants do provide California, and the nation, with something that is sorely missing, an ambitious view of self-improvement through work.
The majority of Californians have a huge sense of entitlement that Sacramento feeds in exchange for votes.
I simply don't see any downside to adding as many hard worker individuals to the state population.
The more hard working immigrants that want to come the better.
The problems with the schools, housing subsidies, health care and all the other social programs are the fault of politicians not immigrants.

"Nice. Apparently, being able to think of an argument against immigration = you want to kill immigrants."

Just pointing out you're full of shit for your constant whining about big government oppression when you pile on the group that is targeted by the government for abuse more than any other.

Whenever there is real government abuse, libertarians are either on the side of the government or no where to be found, like Ron Paul on the NDAA.

"Who pays? We do."

Who pays (in the form of harsh, abused labor) for your cheap food? Migrant workers do. Who pays into the system with no expectation of benefits, and provides the government with a net revenue even considering all these 'costs' you speak of, of $20 in revenue? Migrant workers do.

But as usual the compassionate libertarians complain about maybe having to pay a penny for an abused migrant worker's ER bill, while they get to enjoy their lavish lifestyle off the backs of migrant labor.

Tettleton's Chew, I agree with your OP.

+1'd the shit out of this dude

The real fact is that cheap immigrant labor is a keystone in the foundation of capitalist power in this country. Why do you think wages for unskilled labor have been falling for the last 30 years? Why do you think labor unions have been in decline? Because unskilled laborers from Central and South America are willing to work for less than what an American needs to live on and won't ask any questions or make any demands for better treatment. Every welfare program they're eligible for is one less reasonable expense the corporations who employ them need to pay out in wages. You think "the right" is against immigrant labor? Then ask yourself why the Bush administration and its corporate sponsors were pushing so hard for another amnesty during his second term. Ask yourself why corporations hire so many cheap foreign laborers, and why the government doesn't really do anything about it.

"Ron Paul on the NDAA. "

Funny. I heard Ron Paul talk at UCLA a few weeks ago. He ripped into the NDAA during his speech, to great cheers from the crowd. As usual, you don't know the first thing about what you're talking about.

"Who pays (in the form of harsh, abused labor) for your cheap food? Migrant workers do. Who pays into the system with no expectation of benefits, and provides the government with a net revenue even considering all these 'costs' you speak of, of $20 in revenue? Migrant workers do. "

Exactly. Illegal immigrants are a new slave class for the uber-capitalists; they will work cheap and hard and won't raise a fuss no matter how abused they are, and are willing to live several families to a house, allowing the Master Capitalist class to dump uppity American workers who demand things like living wages, lunch breaks, and health care. If labor unionists weren't so blinded and corrupted by power, they would see illegal immigrants for what they really are - strike breakers for the profit of American corporations, encouraged by the Capitalist class to come to this country so the latter doesn't have to pay American laborers their due and raising the capitalists' profits.

"He ripped into the NDAA during his speech, to great cheers from the crowd. As usual, you don't know the first thing about what you're talking about."

Yeah, I heard about his 'speeches'. He was so against the NDAA he didn't even bother to vote against it. As usual you don't even know what your Fuhrer stands for.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2011/h932

"Exactly. Illegal immigrants are a new slave class for the uber-capitalists"

So you on one hand call them slaves and in the next you're whining about paying pennies for their healthcare and their exploiting the welfare system? I can't keep track of your bizarro zigs and zags. Seems like you'll use whatever rhetoric is convenient.

"f labor unionists weren't so blinded and corrupted by power, they would see illegal immigrants for what they really are - strike breakers for the profit of American corporations, encouraged by the Capitalist class to come to this country so the latter doesn't have to pay American laborers their due and raising the capitalists' profits."

More fascist divide & rule tactics. Pretending to care about workers rights when you do nothing but attack them and their right to organize. As usual your solution to every problem is to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator and beat up on immigrants rather than bring up everybody's standard of living by unionizing them all.

More fraud from a Buchananite chauvinist posing as a libertarian.

"He was so against the NDAA he didn't even bother to vote against it. As usual you don't even know what your Fuhrer stands for."

Funny. You denounce Ron Paul for failing to vote against a bill which was certainly going to pass because he was busy running for president... while you'll be voting for Obama in November, the president WHO SIGNED THE FUCKING THING INTO LAW. What can we expect, though - as a worshiper of Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and the DDR, can we really expect you to be against laws prohibiting the state from kidnapping people in the middle of the night and holding them in secret without trial?

"So you on one hand call them slaves and in the next you're whining about paying pennies for their healthcare and their exploiting the welfare system?"

That's right. I'd like to see an economic system where laborers can survive off the wages earned for their honest labor. I know this economic balance is viewed as impossible in communist doctrine, but you can call me a dreamer.

"More fraud from a Buchananite chauvinist posing as a libertarian."

Insulted by Stalinist thugs = must be doing something right

Tolstoy, much like with prostitution, the illegality of using certain immigrant labor makes the situation worse. Whores can't run to the police when a john or a pimp attacks them; illegal workers can't tell the police about bad working conditions and often don't make contributions to payroll taxes or similar. Even legal workers, in a situation in which their employer (or spouse) is sponsoring them, are in a tough spot because contacting the police could mean losing their greencards.

"But as usual the compassionate libertarians complain about maybe having to pay a penny for an abused migrant worker's ER bill, while they get to enjoy their lavish lifestyle off the backs of migrant labor. "

HYPOCRITE CHECK: Putin, my Compassionate Commie, how much of your paycheck do you bank? What is the square footage of your home? What sort of vehicle do you drive? Because, you have an ideology, and you make suggestions along the lines that if someone is living a life "in excess" while others suffer, this is wrong.

SO, what, exactly, do you do for the poor and destitute? Surely you have *no* excess in your life while others suffer.

PREDICTION: No answer -OR- an excuse as to why he doesn't live by his principles...

"Funny. You denounce Ron Paul for failing to vote against a bill which was certainly going to pass because he was busy running for president... while you'll be voting for Obama in November, the president WHO SIGNED THE FUCKING THING INTO LAW. "

That's the best excuse you can come up with to deflect for the fact your supposed anti-government hero can't even be bothered to vote on this issue he claims to care so much about? As you said, Paul wasn't concerned at all about winning the Presidency, it's all about his own ego and keeping his name in the papers. Selling books maybe, maybe another tome about gold.

What do libertarians care about people being detained? You aren't the ones being detained. When people called the Paulies about anti-war demonstrators being rounded up by the FBI, the Paulies gave us the fucking finger. Too busy kissing the ass of Islamists and Mormons while attacking gays and Jews to give a damn about actual government abuse.

"Insulted by Stalinist thugs = must be doing something right"

Poetry, Tolstoy. Sheer poetry.

"Funny. You denounce Ron Paul for failing to vote against a bill which was certainly going to pass because he was busy running for president... while you'll be voting for Obama in November, the president WHO SIGNED THE FUCKING THING INTO LAW."

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/420963-Pokemonfan19/963/13/boom_display.jpg

"When people called the Paulies about anti-war demonstrators being rounded up by the FBI, the Paulies gave us the fucking finger. Too busy kissing the ass of Islamists and Mormons while attacking gays and Jews to give a damn about actual government abuse."

Leaving aside how terribly suspect it is that something as simple as "anti-war demonstrators" caught the FBI's attention, what would you really expect the "Paulies" to do about it? And what do you mean by "Paulies"? The campaign?

As for the middle finger, they wouldn't be libertarians if they didn't hate dirty commies.

I'd like to hear the example of "kissing the ass" of Islamists and Mormons and of "attacking" gays and Jews. Especially the gays. Libertarians are some of the biggest supporters of gay marriage.

"As for the middle finger, they wouldn't be libertarians if they didn't hate dirty commies."

They wouldn't be libertarians if they weren't lazy ass computer geeks who sat around moaning about seatbelt laws while people with politics that actually challenged the state they supposedly hate face all the heat. They wouldn't be libertarians if they give the keynote address at the McCarthyite John Birch Society while having the audacity to complain about the chilling effect that government can have on political dissent.

"Libertarians are some of the biggest supporters of gay marriage."

No they aren't. They're the biggest supporters of "states rights" to implement sodomy laws. Just like they're the biggest supporters of corporate discrimination against African Americans, and generally big on any form of race/gender/and sexuality based discrimination you can think of, so long as it's Montgomery & Tallahassee implementing the laws. Paul voted for the Federal Marriage Protection Act. Paul voted for the Defense of Marriage Act. Paul stridently opposed the Supreme Court decision to strike down sodomy laws. Paul voted for every federal expansion of power that restricted gay marriage. Paul is endorsed by some of the most homophobic pastors and gay hating zealots in this country, which is full of homophobic gay hating zealots.

" what would you really expect the "Paulies" to do about it?"

Express solidarity. Help us campaign against it. Demonstrate against FBI abuse. Actually show up instead of just bitching from their computer screens, like they all do. But why actually do anything about government abuse when you complain about the tyranny of seatbelt laws and monetary policy?

"Leaving aside how terribly suspect it is that something as simple as "anti-war demonstrators" caught the FBI's attention,"

Of course you wouldn't, because you're a rightwing narc whose head is so far up the US government's ass you wouldn't care even if you read a newspaper once in a while and found out.

LOL LOL LOL LOL Putin mocking intelligence services. Yes....because the Communist KGB was ***BENIGN*****

Asshole....you are *such* a fucking predictable dickhead.

For the record - dude up above said Ron Paul didn't care about winning the nomination ****But succeeded in capturing the local control....the causes***. What ...are you TOO FUCKING STUPID to grasp the English language. He EXCERCISE HIS POLITICAL POWER AND MADE A DIFFERENCE.


Hell....any good fucking Commie ought to be PROUD that a guy found a way to have his voice heard, right?


Oh...no....Commies do NOT want individual ideas (which is why Putin is such a fucking retard machine...) but rather ONLY want approved government thoughts....


...upon risk of death.


Fuck off, Putin. You fucking moron retard TROLL.

Putin33, how can you expect solidarity from libertarians when you're a communist? Libertarians are all about individual liberty, which is completely incompatible with collectivism. It's also a bit silly to define libertarians as a set group since it's more of a tendency which is largely compatible with being either a Democrat or Republican. There is no Libertarian Pope defining what it means to be a libertarian. Even the idea of a distinct set of principles beyond the support for individual liberty seems strange.

The few sodomy laws left were struck down as unconstitutional almost 10 years ago. It's a moot issue. As for gay marriage, you're simply wrong. Perhaps you're working with the Van Jones flawed definition of libertarianism.

"Paul is endorsed by some of the most homophobic pastors and gay hating zealots in this country, which is full of homophobic gay hating zealots."

Names? And even so, what does it matter who endorses who? Is Obama a communist because you support him? Of course not!


It must be tiring being so outraged all the time.

"The few sodomy laws left were struck down as unconstitutional almost 10 years ago. It's a moot issue. As for gay marriage, you're simply wrong. Perhaps you're working with the Van Jones flawed definition of libertarianism."

It's not a moot issue since RP and his ilk want to turn back the clock far more than 10 years (birth control access was supposedly a 'moot issue'). The "you're just wrong" shtick stopped working a long time ago. Going to have to actually provide a rebuttal and stop asserting you're correct by virtue of you being you.

" how can you expect solidarity from libertarians when you're a communist? Libertarians are all about individual liberty, which is completely incompatible with collectivism."

They're not about liberty, they're about property. That's the point I've been making. You haven't provided a single counterargument other than "you're wrong". If they cared about individual liberty they would be fighting for them, instead of sitting on their ass and watching as the government represses others. Or worse, trying empower state governments to gut them completely.

Provide a counterargument or shut up.

"Perhaps you're working with the Van Jones flawed definition of libertarianism."

I see Snitchy has become a fan of Glenn Beck. Demonizing Van Jones who is as harmless a progressive as they come. But he's black, so he must be dangerous.