Hi there, are you implying he was cheating? If not, why not playing for the solo if he has the chance?
I played England, and went against France in the beginning. I am happy and proud we could disentangle and stopped the solo.
Regards.

gameID=88067
My description of the game is not for CSteinhardt (the guy whining above) but for the general public.

I started as Turkey and got lucky, since Russia was a noob. I took both Bulgaria and Romania, then Sevastopol. With no builds forthcoming, and StP about to fall into English hands, Russia leaves the game in 1903.

In spring 1904, I wrestle Greece from Italy and manage to hold it in autumn. Italy (5 SCs to my 10 SCs) gets disheartened and leaves the game. In 1906, sadly, Germany leaves too. That's too bad, because it gives a chance to the underdogs France and England.

After advancing for a while, I realize that I don't know anything about stalemate lines, since I'm a noob myself, and that I might even lose. I draw. It's a five-way draw, since Germany and Italy are still technically in the game! France (CSteinhardt) goes ballistic. I tell him to go fuck himself. End of the game.

But if everyone voted for a draw, what's the problem?

No, I'm not implying he was cheating. Cheating accusations don't belong in the forums, and in any event, I'm certain he was not doing anything illegal like multi-accounting.

Rather, it's a question of respect for your fellow players. We're trying to play a game of Diplomacy. It's unfortunate when a power goes CD and ruins the game, but nevertheless, that's what happened. Germany and Italy disappeared, and changed a likely draw into a Turkish forced solo. It's not appropriate for Turkey to take that solo - if Turkey wants to work on playing against all holds, he's welcome to do it, but it's not reasonable to ask other humans to sit around and put in orders while that happens. This is why live games end in a cancel or draw when a power leaves that affects the game (and why we try and stop playing with players who leave frequently). If you had a solo already and a neighbor leaves, fine. But trying to take a solo because all of your neighbors left when otherwise it wasn't anywhere close is disrespectful to your fellow players. And for that matter, are you really going to be proud of beating holds?

Then again, I will admit that given the way the game played out, I suppose I actually *would* recommend that Zmaj take some time and practice playing against all holds, given that he managed to draw against it. But even so, that practice shouldn't come at the expense of other humans.

@DiploMerlin: Everybody except Turkey voted for a draw. Turkey only took a draw when he failed to win with all of his neighbors in CD and was about to have to deal with some actual human neighbors who do nasty things like order their units.

Zmaj is consistently rude and defensive. He obviously has self esteem issues.

Don't waste any more time thinking about CSteinhardt.

So basically you are just bitching because you feel he wasted your time.

Welcome to the land of live games. If you can't handle it, don't play live games.

This is an interesting point. I actually disagree and I hope I am not disrespectful to other players. The way I see it: As long as there is no cheating, somebody leaving the game is part of the game. I never leave games, unless the house is in fire. In the long run, I will benefit, even if sometimes some other players leaving hurt my position (or, rather, helps my rival's. But just as many times, it helps me, and I do take advantage of that.
In this game we just played - I think our stopping the solo Turkey was greatly helped by Germany leaving. And we both took the opportunity.
Am I being unreasonable or unfair here? Share your opinion.

you know...i looked through the game...there were only 2 or 3 turns where italy held everything..so i really don't think your bitching about him losing to "held units" is a fair assessment.

Granted, CSteinhardt, yes he should have drawn if and when both Italy and germany left (as i would have), frankly, especially when italy came back or was replaced, you cannot fault him for continuing to play.

"Granted, CSteinhardt, yes he should have drawn if and when both Italy and germany left (as i would have)"
Is that a common sentiment here? As I described above, I do not share it. Should I?

Do whatever you want, bihary, but be prepared that if you keep playing with people like those above, you will get bitched at.

It's a question of what we're here to do. I'm here to play Diplomacy, a seven-player game. Diplomacy is interesting precisely because it's a multi-player game in which balance of power is important. The tradition in live games on this site is that if a CD greatly affects the game, the game gets drawn/cancelled out of respect for the other players, because at that point it's not really a game of Diplomacy. If a power goes CD at a point where they're not affecting the result, then we play on.

Could I pad my stats a bit by refusing to draw/cancel when the CD helps me? I'm sure I could. I'm sure many of the other honorable players on this site could, as well. But honestly, I prefer my stats to reflect how I do against six other humans, and I'd like to think I've managed to win my fair share anyway. With an emphasis on fair.

At the very least, it's unfair when most of the players will agree to draw/cancel with a CD that greatly affects the game but one doesn't, and only draws if it's to their advantage. So, as long as the site has a gentleman's agreement to draw/cancel, it's appropriate to blackball those who don't follow it. If somebody wants to create a game that explicitly says in the title that they will play through CDs, they're welcome to, but barring that the assumption is that a live game will not.

@bihary: There are many on the site who like to draw if a country goes CD, especially early in the game. But there are also many who accept that CDs happen all the time in live games, so just ignore them.

The way I see it, if it happens right at the beginning, cancel or draw as it hasn't wasted much time, and you can can hopefully get another game going with no CDs, but if it happens in the mid game, just roll with it. That is generally my philosophy at least.

Its a matter of opinion, so just do with you think is best. There is no consensus on here. People are going to get angry with you no matter what you do.

I agree with Tom Bombadil. In fact, I always draw if someone disappears in 1901 or 1902, you can check if you want. Everyone's barking at the wrong tree. The issue is not how to punish those who continue to play, but how to punish those who CD, and I haven't seen any of that.

As an aside, bihary was right. Germany leaving helped England and France way more than it helped me.

Sounds fair to me, but does not work in practice. I often try to play live games here, and the best I get is these kinds of games, if any. Following your logic, 80% of the live games I played should have been cancelled.
I think, somebody leaving is part of the story. Diplomacy is a game where you have to adopt to any situation, and play the hand you are dealt.
Having said that, I would definitely prefer if we had like 3-4 live games offered at any given moment, and I could pick the one with players with proven records.

@Zmaj: The German CD helped England and France only because you failed to count to 18. When Germany left, you had a forced solo, and just had to take it. True, you then chose to play the game in a way that managed to let it help England and France, but this is because you played it poorly. For what it's worth, both England and France, seeing a CD on their border, set draw/cancel. But ultimately, the reason England and France came out the winners from Germany and Italy not moving was poor play on the part of Turkey.

@bihary: From the games I have played, your viewpoint is not standard for live gunboat games on this site. And yes, a lot of them do get cancelled early on, which is unfortunate. But, presumably you came to the site because you wanted to play against humans. There are other places to play if you prefer variants where some of the powers are missing, after all. Or, if you'd prefer, I'd be happy to point you to ways to play against AIs.

CSteinhardt just can't get off his fucking sarcastic horse. Now he's vomiting all over bihary. And his pal Sargmacher calls me rude. What a joke!

Just for the record: I never set cancel.
I did set draw, as a message to the western triangle that we need to stop fighting to stop the solo.
In fact, when I saw we stopped Turkey, I wanted to unset my draw, because I wanted to see at least Germany eliminated, and I also started to see the hope for the game taking a radical turn, and why not play then? But I forgot to unset my draw.

@Zmaj: You are rude. I messaged you after one of our games asking about your motivations in that game and you were rude and defensive off-the-bat.

You are antagonistically defensive and it constantly shows in your language, tone, and manner to other people here. CSteinhardt isn't my pal, I hardly know him, but he has been a good and fair player here - if you read his first message at the top of this thread it is not unkind to you, he asks for your input. You immediately come out swinging, being defensive and rude.

Sargmacher, I forgot about our conversation. But if you were being angry and sarcastic, yeah, it's possible I told you to go where the sun doesn't shine.

As for CSteinhardt's unkind post above, let's see...

"I recommend the same for other honorable players" i.e. Zmaj has no honor

"if you can't, that's the last time I'm joining your game" i.e. I'm threatening you

In the country where I come from, and I assure you it's not Wimpland, we tell such people to go fuck themselves. No need for gloves.

After reading the whole thread, the argument shouldn't exist in the first place because Tom is absolutely right. If there were one or two CDs first year, then you have a case; 1903 and beyond is completely fair game and is part of Diplomacy. These things happen in live games and longer phase games, it just becomes a bigger pain in the ass and argument in live games because players just instantly take to the forum to air grievances.

If you (CSteinhart et al) feel that you've been wronged and want the game to end as soon as a player goes CD, you need to be cognizant of that as players and form the draw alliance. A nonexistent player is the same as a weak or terrible player and a good player will capitalize on any weaknesses he can. I'm not saying ZMaj is good by any stretch of the imagination, but he was merely playing as a smart Diplomacy player.

Bottom line is that CDs happen in live games. Its nothing new. Yes, it might be worse now with more players than ever before, but as veteran Diplomacy players, you should know what to do with an in-game CD. Stop filling the forum with constant complaints and bickering because I know I'm not the only player who is sick of seeing it. Fuck.

CSteinhart: quit whining. It's a live game. Do you expect everyone to be on board all of the time? Shit man, if one player leaves for a cup of coffee or to taka a shit he's already lost a turn.

Furthermore, at the point of the draw Turkey was still at ten SCs. He didn't even try to win and you guys had enough time to man the stalemate lines. So quit bitching and play the game until the end.

I would venture a guess that when you see someone with 60 wins, or even 40 wins, or heck even 1 win....that there is a good chance they won a game because someone CD'ed. Can any of you claim that youve never mopped up a solo, Andruha did it the other day with no dignity and we were the ones who got in trouble for talking about the game as it was going on. There is no fairness in this game, we should stop trying to impose invisible codes of conduct, stop playing entirely or ask that the rules be changed. complaining about this same issue over and over has only made more people do this crap.

If CDs really bother you (like they do me) then avoid live games like I do. CDs still happen in longer phase games but it is much more uncommon. And brainbomb, I think many of us can say that we haven't taken advantage of a CD to take a win (but that doesn't mean its a bad thing to do. Its all personal preference.)

My policy on CDs.

(1) Early game CDs (pre-W1903). If the CD isn't advantageous to me, I immediately vote draw/cancel. If it is, I wait to see what the others do. If half the remaining players vote draw/cancel, I'll join in. Given that live games so often feature CDs, I've found the better response to them is the above, because for live games here, unfortunately CDs are a part of the game, and like any other part should be used to maximize one's own advantage (hence the initial policy). But if I'm playing with a sizable group of people who want to end the game due to the CD, then I'll honor that.

(2) Later CDs (no real predefined date). If a CD is sufficiently destabilizing in my opinion, I immediately vote draw to let the draw votes go up and see who wants to end the game. However, I pull my own shortly afterward. When these CDs happen, I've learned to play for the smallest draw possible, but not to take the solo. I do this for a few reasons: (a) this ensures I don't lose GR from the game, which would be extremely unfair; (b) it is much less likely that a CD would lead to an undeserved draw than an undeserved win; and (c) it takes the game to a satisfying conclusion despite the CD. (a) is pretty easy to understand - I play mostly anonymous games, so I don't know for sure how many people have to be KOed before I'm in a draw from which I actually profit. So absent that knowledge, I just have to try to maximize my gain to avoid such issues. (b) just means that while people winning due to a CD in a game that would otherwise be drawn is somewhat common, a game going to a draw due to a CD in a game that would otherwise be won is essentially impossible. Thus, it's completely justifiable to play to cut out the small powers, because in a hypothetical draw situation people would be looking to cut them out anyway. (In the rare situation where the imminent winner CDs, an immediate draw might be appropriate.) (c) is also easy to understand - a minimal draw is the "expected" finish of a given Diplomacy game, so having a game end that way is nice, and a good way to overcome the CD.

And of course if it's a minor power going CD late, don't waste anyone's time with draw/cancel.

My policy on Gunboat.

(1) I don't play Gunboat.