Despite what Fox news said, this guys testimony has been around from the beginning. I read it a day after this tragedy occured It still doesn't change a thing. Trayvon Martin was being stalked in the rain and the dark by a grown man. He had every right to suspect his stalker had bad intentions and every right to defend himself. There is little evidence that Trayvon was going to beat this man to death, and on top of that tthere is another witness who gives an opposite testimony. What is not disputed is that there was a scuffle that should never have occured caused by Zimmermans abject stupidity. And if anyone is a race baiter, you are right here.

krellin, really? You expect the mob mentality to respect due process? The state will not press charges, but the feds will find something just so they can say they did something.

Was Trayvon Martin granted due process Czech?

all we are asking for are for charges to be brought. if the justice system acquits him we will have that debate then. but right now the asshole has had nothing formal brought against him.

of course i think he is guilty of murder, but i'm not the justice system. but the fact that the justice system as it stands now is allowing him to essentially do what he did with no examination legally is what is repulsive.

i thought of this in passing but what if a murderer who hated racists wanted to punish zimmerman for murdering trayvon martin and did so by following him to a place where there are no witnesses, murdering him, and then afterward claiming self defense?

is it not equivalent?

no because it is premeditated. But the Black Panthers have placed a $10,000 bounty on his head supposedly.

I don't think it was murder, I would call it manslaughter, but it definitely is not self defense if you stalk someone, confront them, and then shoot them when the fight you picked goes awry.

@Thucy - Murder implies premeditation and planning. At worst he is guilty of manslaughter. And if the police arrest him then he has to be charged with a *specific* charge or released any how, so waiting until the investigation is complete and bringing charges the prosecutor knows will stick is the *correct* way to do it.

@ santa well put

@ druag sad to see you back

I dunno, from the 911 calls it really kinda sounded like he decided he wanted to go kill him. He fucking followed him.. why would you do that.

How that can be called self-defense blows my mind. I should add that I am all in favor of self-defense as legitimate.

But only when it is actually fucking self-defense.

You're right about the correct way to do it but I'm pretty sure they have things like preventative custody that prevent people who are murderers et al from like escaping before they can be charged. I think there's like a waiting period you can hold someone without charge for this purpose, am I wrong?

@santa, Black Panthers, lol. You sure it's not Trotskyists or international anarchists?

But I agree with you on the general picture. Even if everything the eyewitness says is true (and I don't believe that it is), Zimmerman should still go to jail for the rest of your life. If someone tries to unlawfully detain me, I have the right to use force in response. The best case scenario for Zimmerman is that he created a situation in which force was likely or inevitable, then killed someone when he realized he'd bitten off more than he could chew.

OK...I *honestly* have no idea what happened *despite* the article I linked to...and my point in posting it was to demonstrate that, despite the media hype and our asshole President's statements about this case...there is an untold story that *nobody* knows about.

It seems the guy "stalked" this kid -- but he WAS part of the Neighborhood watch...in a neighborhood where there had been a rash of break-ins...so, he was doing his "job"...something many will neglect to pay attention to. Flip the table...it's YOUR neighborhood, and you see a suspicious character wandering around in a hoody, staring at houses in the dark while its raining...I suppose you just do what? Say, "Look honey," to your spouse, "look at that kid out there. Ahhh...he's just enjoying the rain. Isn't that nice. let's go watch some mindless reality TV..." No...you'd probably watch him, because your neighbor's house got busted in to last week, and the dude down the block the week before.

Yeah...the guy followed him, and called the cops and nothing came of it. blah blah blah...

How the struggle occured, nobody knows. How he got shot...what the exact circumstances were (was he beating Zimmerman up pretty bad such that he feared for his life?) - Who knows. If Zimmerman accosted the guy and tried to hold him, that's assualt...he should get charged. If Trayvon turned the tables and began violently beating him...then doesn't Zimmerman have a right to defend himself at this point?

Or maybe Trayvon approached him and got in his face becaus Zimmerman was following him...maybe dear, precious Trayvon was the aggressor all the time, and thought that he'd just beat the shit out of the crazy fat white guy following him...

Fact is...nobody knows.

What exactly did Obama say that was so offensive? He said that it was a tragedy and it should be investigated? Thats it.

"so, he was doing his "job"...something many will neglect to pay attention to."

No actually it was not his job. The head of the national Neighborhood watch organization said explicitly that the policy of the organization is to watch and report, not to confront, he went above and beyond what he is supposed to do. He is not a cop, it is not his job to confront someone he views as suspicious

"Flip the table...it's YOUR neighborhood, and you see a suspicious character wandering around in a hoody, staring at houses in the dark while its raining...I suppose you just do what?"

What makes him suspicious? He is wearing a hoodie in the rain? Oh, I get it, hes black so he is suspicious.

"Say, "Look honey," to your spouse, "look at that kid out there. Ahhh...he's just enjoying the rain. Isn't that nice. let's go watch some mindless reality TV..." No...you'd probably watch him, because your neighbor's house got busted in to last week, and the dude down the block the week before."

Yep, you call the cops and watch, you don't approach, exactly right

"Or maybe Trayvon approached him and got in his face becaus Zimmerman was following him..."

Alright, now your turn Krellin, you just picked up some iced tea from a convenience store and are heading back home, a guy is either a.) following you, b.) approaches you

Why does this kid not have the right to defend himself?

"you see a suspicious character wandering around in a hoody"

thats not suspicious.

thats the whole point.

and your whole point about "nobody knows" only underscores the horror of this single fact (which I alluded to when i hypothesized a murder of zimmerman): essentially, when you have this kind of self-defense law, you can basically murder someone and get away with it if there is no witness.

because, fact is...nobody knows.

I've heard the 911 recording Zimmerman made and he was told to *not* follow but did so anyhow. This makes culpable for ignoring a direct order from the police dispatcher he was put through too.

oh ps anyone heard the story of trayvon's girlfriend with whom he was on the phone when killed who has said he was saying he was being followed by a suspicious man and then called for help...?

this at least merits a charge, is what i'm saying. idk.

Trying hard to wait on the trial, but I'm not gonna lie, it's hard not to wish for the chair.

@Thucy - The problem is what charge? They can only hold him for 24 hours without charging him and if they charge him too harshley he'll walk and out double jeopardy laws means he can't be charged again for the same crime even under a lesser charge. I live in one of the most racially charged conservative cities in the US. Ask fortknox, he can confirm Cinci's status as racist, and we deal with this all the time. But our black community leaders have learned that, if they are patient and don't jump to conclussions, justice will happen in most cases and our police have learned to keep the community in the loop in cases like this.

No doubt - Zimmerman was told by police to not follow the guy...he disobeyed, and should be possibly brought up on charges for that. Question -- how long AFTER the police order did the death occur? Did zimmerman move on, then come back and find the kid still lurking about? Nobody in this forum knows that information, I'll bet. Did Zimmerman drive off, and then the kid came back after him? Nobody knows....I've never heard the story about how they get into a conflict...

thus....fact is....nobody knows...

So how do you convict on murder versus excusing for self-defense?

Nobody *here* can....dead body does not equal murder.

im saying the cell phone and the girlfriends testimony could be used as a counter to zimmerman's testimony.

and lets be honest

men have hung for less.

*black men

Lets see TIME try to spin this one by making Trayvon blacker.

@Eden - The chair will never happen in this case. There is *no* 1st degree or felony murder here. Once again, this requires not only intent but prior intent and planning, neither of which will ever be proven here. He will likely get life or a long enough term that he will be an old, old man when he gets out, but he won't get the deth penalty. Oh, and I know you meant the chair figuratively, but Florida uses lethal injection unless the inmate in question *requests* old sparky.

@krellin - the cell phone call and the timeing of his 911 call concurrent to the gunshot indicate it was a very short time, not some left and came back bullshit you present here. But you also seem to want this to be black and white murder versus self defense. It is more likely manslaughter versus involuntary manslaughter and in the end it will be a plea deal. I'd put money on it.

Yeah, I know he won't get the chair. It's just hard not to wish for it.

Well, it's easy for me not to wish for it. But then I'm one of those rare conservatives who is against capital punishment completely.

Oh no, I oppose capital punishment entirely as well. I'm just talking gut feeling here. Intuition is telling me this guy is guilty 10 ways to Tuesday, and that scumbags like this have forfeited their right to be considered human beings worthy of any legal respect for their lives. But we don't run a country on intuition. I'm leaving this to the courts and hoping justice is served.

Only in America! Actually this could have happened anywhere, still don't care. Why so concerned about 'justice'? Jesus will sort them out.

However, you are correct krellin, this does prove once and for all that 'racism' is a myth created by commies/arabs/germans/china.

However, you are correct krellin, this does prove once and for all that
**********'racism' is a myth created by commies/arabs/germans/china***********.

Racism much?

@Draug - I don't WANT it to be anything (white/black, manslaughter, blah blah blah). My point throughout this ENTIRE conversation is that nobody knows what it is. speculate all you want....but the national cries for the shooter to be lynched are ridiculous....just as ridiculous as cries for black rapists to be lynched without fair trials.

I don't want it to be anything...I just wish everyone - PARTICULARLY the President - to shut the fuck up about it and let justice take its course. And, in America, I *think* that still means "Innocent until proven Guilty"....(Unless you are dealing with the IRS....)