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Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
PFC Bradley Manning
A hero of the twenty-first century?
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Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
For those unaware of the recent controversy about the American military document leaks, the earlier videos released by wikileaks, or the arrest of Brad Manning, here are some links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Bradley_Manning
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/

----

To summarize:


Beginning in 2009, Brad was responsible for, or had a role in, the extrication and release of a video showing an airship gun down civilians and children in cold blood (Collateral Murder) , a video showing a mistakenly aimed airstrike raining down and killing a group of 100+ civilians, mostly children(Garrani Airstrikes), a classified Army document evaluating Wikileaks as a security threat, and 260,000 classified U.S. diplomatic cables detailing issues surrounding the war.

Later released by wikileaks (with several edits hiding the identity of individuals that may have been put into danger and edits highlighting certain important details) these videos and documents show chillingly what many opponents of the American wars in the middle east have feared for years.

That is, that the United States is fighting a series of unjust wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, is funding it's own enemies, is not progressing in its puported goals, is fighting a much stronger Taliban et al. insurgency, is consistently and blatantly lying to the American public, is responsible for far more civilian deaths that it admits, is attempting to expand the war into Pakistan Yemen and Iran, and has far less support or hope in achieving the mission of 'stabilizing' Afghanistan than it claims.

Currently PFC Manning is being held without charge in a Kuwaiti prison, and will continue to be until he charged with violating security regulations and army conduct regulations. These are not idle threats.

Brad Manning is twenty-two years old. If he is convicted, and there is every reason to believe that he will be, he faces a sentence of up to 52 years. Assuming that the trial happens with unusual effeciency and is concluded within the next year, Brad will emerge from prison at the age of 75; an old man. In exposing the video and the documents, Brad will have sacrificed his adult life.

In Brad's own words;

“if you had free reign over classified networks for long periods of time... say, 8-9 months... and you saw incredible things, awful things... things that belonged in the public domain, and not on some server stored in a dark room in Washington DC... What would you do? ... say... a database of half a million events during the Iraq war... from 2004 to 2009... with reports, date time groups, lat-lon locations, casualty figures... ? or 260,000 state department cables from embassies and consulates all over the world, explaining how the first world exploits the third, in detail, from an internal perspective?"

This is a question that I think we all need to answer, particularly those of us who puport to be anti-war, anti-Imperialistic, and against all the death and violence meted out on people of a different colour and different culture half-way across the world.

What if you could make a difference at great personal risk?

Would you value the constitution over the edicts and compulsion of your superiors? Would you value the lives of others over your own comfort? Would you value so highly the right of your fellow citizens to know the truth that you would be willing to risk your freedom?

What would you do?
Panthers (470 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
"What if you could make a difference at great personal risk?"

What difference has he made? Other than leaking information that you might not want your enemies to know, and showing off real war (civilians get killed in wars, not a surprising side effect), he seems to have done some damage and not any good.


What in these leaked reports surprised you? Vidoes of people dying are never fun to watch. But what do you expect during a war?

If this is the person who leaked these reports than he should be prosecuted. There is a good reason that some war information is kept from the public.
centurion1 (1478 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
He's a shitheel
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Aug 10 UTC
I haven't been following this too closely, but from what I understand:

There was nothing released of use to the public that couldn't be easily inferred from other sources.

Everything else that was released either put allies at risk or gave the appearance of putting them at risk.

So, I see the potential for harm, and no benefit. Not to mention, he's a member of the military and had absolutely no business doing this.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
I hope he fucking rots doing hard time for treason at a minimum. Breaking boulders is too good for this fuck.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Panthers, I wasn't surprised. But a lot of Americans *were* surprised, and it is their sentiment that matters. Notably, the video and documents provide irrefutable truth to the claims about crimes committed by the American government and military, not to mention the reptilian duplicity in the United States' regional 'allies' in the conflict (looking at *you*, ISI). If nothing else, this will make it harder and harder to justify the war on humanitarian grounds, or with the argument that victory will be achieved soon.

If you are anti-war, then a positive difference has been made. Even if you believe in the war but you also believe in representative democracy, then a positive difference has been made. The American government, if it is indeed representative of the people it rules, ought not be able to wage war under false pretences and with false information being released to the public. Otherwise, fraud has been committed on a vast and terrible scale.

"There is a good reason that some war information is kept from the public."

Why? Because proximity to the horrors committed in your name and with your money makes you less likely to support those orchestrating the crimes?

Aw damn.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Aug 10 UTC
@FS

The time for arguing about whether or not to have a war is past. What's done is done. Now, we need to stay there long enough to fix the mess we started. If we leave now, everything will be totally fucked and it will bite us in the ass as it has before. What's better: Staying longer now and trying to bring stability for a long time, or pulling out prematurely and going back in 30 years when another plane flies into NY?
trip (696 D(B))
03 Aug 10 UTC
he's lucky the u.s. a "civilized" nation. he should be hanged. and before some of you get all teary eyed about how he's being treated, he'd already be decapitated if he was on the other side.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@FS - ""There is a good reason that some war information is kept from the public."

Why? Because proximity to the horrors committed in your name and with your money makes you less likely to support those orchestrating the crimes?"

No, because loose lips sink ships. Military secrets are secret from the public so the enemy doesn't get vital intel that would allow them to counter our actions. Info that gets leaked can easily be used to determine troop deployments and project troop movements and hot spots.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Legally, Brad Manning is guilty without a doubt. If you believe in the War, and if you believe that the American Public ought not be privy to the facts on the ground, and if you believe that disobedience alone deserves forfeiture of a free life, then yes, he deserves an eternity of jail or whatever punishment you want meted out.

It seems likely that your wishes will be granted.

However!
The dictates of law, the structure of obedience within the American military, and the risks to a war effort... are all things that I reject as my primary basis for moral action. Even if you only believe that the public ought to be privy to crimes committed in their name, than this action and sacrifice is more than permissible..... it is admirable and heroic.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Aug 10 UTC
@FS

But don't you see he may have very well caused more of what he claims to be against? Wikileaks did not do a perfect job of removing people's information; he could very well be personally responsible for many, many innocent people's deaths.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@FS - you weren't around for Nam and I doubt you even remember much of Desert Storm. I remember Nam and I got out of the service just before DS started. This fuck needs to be put to death as a traitor to my country. They do still have the death penalty for that and I hope to God he gets it.
Serioussham (446 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@ ab
what about the dead innocent people who are being covered up?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Aug 10 UTC
@ham

Are they being covered up, or just not reported on? There's a huge difference.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
A couple responses:

"There was nothing released of use to the public that couldn't be easily inferred from other sources."

This is not correct. Obviously the majority of the Diplomatic documents reveal no 'great secrets', but they do confirm facts about Taliban capabilities, civilian deaths, American meddling in regional governments, duplicity of Pakistan and the central Asian republics, problems in the Karzai regime, etc. etc. that until now were only suspicions.

"Everything else that was released either put allies at risk or gave the appearance of putting them at risk."

Replace "at risk" with "in a position of looking bad" and you are right on the money. Had the documents been released as they were, it is true that some Afghan interpreters, etc. would have been put into personal risk. Fortunately, edits have mostly reduced those risks.

"The time for arguing about whether or not to have a war is past. What's done is done. Now, we need to stay there long enough to fix the mess we started. If we leave now, everything will be totally fucked and it will bite us in the ass as it has before. What's better: Staying longer now and trying to bring stability for a long time, or pulling out prematurely and going back in 30 years when another plane flies into NY?"

From a perspective of lives wasted, political instability abroad, and economic troubles, a 9/11esque event happening every thirty years would be a comparative blessing.

What needs to be stated in such debates about policy is that a) The destruction in the middle east is far worse than the admittedly horrific and terrifying destruction on 9/11 and b) The jury is out whether the military actions in the middle east have made Americans safer or more endangered.

The fact that military action against state actors and regional insurgents makes it less likely for solo or small groups of radicalized individuals to attacks American targets is not settled. If this is the only justification for war it is a BAD JUSTIFICATION.

"No, because loose lips sink ships. Military secrets are secret from the public so the enemy doesn't get vital intel that would allow them to counter our actions. Info that gets leaked can easily be used to determine troop deployments and project troop movements and hot spots."

A) This assumes that once a war is started or planned, it is morally justified no matter what. I reject this.

B) For the most part, the documents do no reveal up-to-date strategic positions or plans for attacks and troop placement. This criticism is thus off-the-mark even by it's own standard.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Well Draug....

In the nicest terms possible; :)

I am not an American citizen, I do not believe in nationalistic bullcrap, and I do not believe in American exceptionalism. An action does not become morally justified simply because it is America doing the acting. Please try again. :)
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
I didn't say what those particular soldiers did was justified, morally or otherwise, FS. But what the private did was treason. I believe traitors deserve the full punishment of the law. My references to Nam and DS were to the secrets kept. Nam had it's share of war crimes (although DS was probably one of the cleanest wars we ever fought) but the biggest difference between those two was the press and leaking of information. Nam was a bitch because of people like Hanoi Jane undermining everything and letting the enmy know our plans. Personally, Jane Fonda should be rotting in a jail somewhere and if she hadn't fucked some congressman (or maybe several at once) somewhere down the line, she probably would be.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
I also agree that Brad Manning violated American military regulations, hurt the American war effort, and is undoubtedly guilty of several offenses as defined by the powers that be.

Whatevs.

I still think his actions were heroic and admirable in nature, though I wish we lived in a world where they weren't necessary.

My point being that in a world where America is not infallible, treason need not equal immorality, as is the case (I submit) here.
centurion1 (1478 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Fucking bullshit. He's sworn to serve his country. He was just. Pissy he didn't get a cushy job like he expected And was shipped over
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Abgemacht, while it is true that Manning's actions could concievably help members of the Iraqi or Afghan insurgencies kill a small number innocent civilians or relatively innocent military personnel, every day in the Middle East is witness to soldiers, civilians and innocents being killed directly by the United States military or it's paid henchmen.

In a balance of harms, the latter far outweighs the former unless you accept the fraudulent pretenses that surround both reasons for the war and the manner of it's waging.

Presumably you do not hold to the opinion that United States acted in the interest of freedom, international security, and Middle Eastern betterment when it invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and began to bomb away at Pakistan and Yemen?
Miro Klose (595 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
I think the world had to know about the psychpathic american soldiers, they killed out of fun
many times, they showed they are no better than terrorists. Everybody should now be able to see what war and military mades out of humans, thanks to wikileaks !
centurion1 (1478 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Obviously not proper grammar you shitwad
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Please quit calling them "the war". There are two wars going right now. I agree with and back one of them 100% and feel we were sold a bill of goods and need to get ourselves extricated from the other 100%. Different wars, different goals, different reasons for being there.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@cent, while I disagree with Miro's obvious attempt to troll, I do cut Miro slack as I don't believe English is Miro's first language. I suspect Miro is from Germany.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
And yes, I know Miro Klose is a footballer, but I suspect our Miro Klose is also German based on the English and the choice of names.
warsprite (152 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
BM is no hero. His actions are a self serving attempt to get back at the military. He had been busted to private for attacking a fellow soldier. He had been in trouble even in training for inappropate bloging about the secret nature of his training. This guy is a troubled young man that was used by others to hurt the US military.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Aug 10 UTC
warsprite +1, abgemacht +1 (sorry cent, but attacking someone's grammar negated your +1)
The Czech (39951 D(S))
03 Aug 10 UTC
I liked the part "Would you value the constitution over the edicts and compulsion of your superiors?" The Constitution protects US citizens from the US government. How does the release of those documents protect me from my government. I doubt very seriously the government is going to start bombing Florida to try and kill Taliban.
warsprite (152 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/manning_youtube/#more-18110 Check this than check this, some hero.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
@Warsprite "His actions are a self serving attempt..."

Huh?

Certainly the man is no angel, and I am not suggesting anything like that. But...

Brad Manning is about to get a life in prison for his actions. His life, which up to that point had not been particularly abnormal (how many otherwise fine people get into fist-fights??) was irreperably destroyed by his actions, the penalties for which he seems to have been very aware. If there is something about this that is self-serving, please enlighten me.

Even if he is lying, there seems to be little reason to believe that he wasn't motivated by the horrific or duplicitous acts he was witness to, but which the military and the government were keeping hidden. This is a prime example of whistle-blowing, albeit with a hostile audience.

That is unless you idealize and ascribe to the belief that the authorities are always right, and those who fight against powerful authority figures are self-serving little piglets. :)

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