I suspect that this is even a hotly debated topic amongst liberals. =D

"to promote equality on the assumption that these groups are naturally faced with more difficulties. "

Is 'naturally faced' or 'historically faced'?

A necessary evil.

Racial or Gender-based affirmative action is, in fact, discriminatory - especially in cases of "reach-down," in which there is a race/gender quota to be met regardless of qualifications.

Not evil and unnecessary. What affirmative action says is that minorities can't hope to be successful on their own so the government has to help them. It's insulting.

But it's different now. Things have changed! Change!

I say no, admission should be based on capabilities and what that one person can give to make it a better place. A good question is, why they get admitted "there" when I can give more with my contributions from being better at "what I'm going for" simply because they are an ethnic group?
Yes very general in what I'm saying, but it works for all things, college, governmental jobs, etc. Replace quoted areas with what you do/go for.

Its helpful for stupid people I guess.

My friend's roommate, who happens to be black, got an 18 on her ACT and still got into U of I. She's failing half her classes. I don't know how she got in if it weren't affirmative action, and I feel sorry for the person excluded to let that train wreck in.

Merit's the only fair way to do anything.

Meh. It doesn't bother me that much even though I know it's wrong.

I think governmental assistance on the basis of economics is justifiable. Give poor people a break, financially, because they're poor... seems fine to me. But when you start saying, "give black people a break because they're... black....or, societally disadvantaged..." it gets far more murky and seems to simply be racism. I think the idea needs to be that poor people=poor people, not black people=poor people. (I'm only using black people here because it is one example, but any other sub-group could be used)

Basically, I'm OK with it as long as there's some genuine, intelligent effort to get schools up to par. As long as that's not happening, affirmative action is just perpetuating a incredible harmful system. Full disclosure: I'm a white, male applying to college from a generally well off area and state. So take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

Get ready for disappointments, Blue. There's no reason I shouldn't be going to Michigan if all they looked at were grades and activities. But they sucked so hard this year in football I don't mind so much. Not that U of I was so stellar...

Dude, ██████████... your name. I can even type that I had to copy it. What the heck lol

Thucydides: jealous is unbecoming.

As is jealousy...

No like... what character did you use? I couldn't produce that if I tried

Affirmative action is descrimination and is mostly used to give the advantage to blacks in this country. Never would have thought it, but the women's center at my college actually did a presentation on how white women are actually hurt my affirmative action because of the overwhelming advantage given to black women while white women are left largely to fend for themselves and therefore have all the supposed negatives affirmative action is supposed to correct but they don't receive the "necessary benefit."

Additionally, discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple. If it's such an evil thing, then it wouldn't be permissible in any situation, regardless of the ends. The fact that it's so "necessary" for blacks (please notice the fact people of Asian decent don't exactly get a lot of help from these programs, nor do Latinos, even the immigrant Latinos who are quite fully pulling themselves up by their bootstraps). It's a tool used by certain politicians to get a certain demographic to vote for them.

I'm all for equality, but equality means EQUAL not special rights, no one deserves something on the basis of their skin color, where they were born, etc. Granted, providing for the truly economicly disadvantaged is permissable in my eyes, but only if they first earn it based on the merit of their own work (i.e., provide need-based scholarships, but don't let people into a school just because they're poor). If there's an inequality in the school system or in society, fix that inequality. Don't use unmitigated inequality be a justification for any sort of discrimination.

"Is 'naturally faced' or 'historically faced'?"

I knew I would make a mistake in the wording of that somewhere. Yes, historically and perhaps currently faced.

Here in Canada, affirmative action isn't a huge thing. There is one exception. Universities entrance and government jobs do give preference to Native Americans and often have job quotas which must be filled by Native Americans. Oh, and I believe the government does have a quota for jobs filled by people with physical disabilities.

Personally, I think affirmative action is morally wrong because it's discrimination all the same. It's irrational to give anyone preferential treatment based on their ethnicity even if they've been historically wronged.

However, despite that I don't feel like affirmative action addresses the proper source of the continued inequality experienced by those benefiting from affirmative action, I can't help but notice that pragmatically, affirmative action does work. For example,

http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=18870

More disturbing in the American tertiary education circuit is the preferential treatment given to athletes, the rich, and the children of alumni.

If I had the power to, I would probably dissolve affirmative action even given it's pragmatic benefits because I believe that policy that is directed more toward the source of the problem, which is likely poverty, would be more effective and much more moral.

They're called "Native Americans" in Canada?

Wow. I'm surprised with the multiple shots at the African-American community. I'm going to use a native example because I'm Canadian though.

For someone that grows up on a reserve you are facing extrem adversity. They grow up in conditions that lead to a circle of poverty. Its all well and good to say that White Rich Private School over here has better marks. But does that mean that he is more deserving than the Reserve Native who had to jump all the hurdles instead of being handfed?

Opponents of affirmative action say that its unfair. Is it fair to let our society discriminate for us? Isn't affirmative action just trying to right that wrong? How will things ever change unless we can break this circle of poverty?

I'm sorry to hear that your friend's roommate is failing out Invictus. If you can see that as her own failing then you are right. But if you see her like she is handicapped by her race in a a rich white culture, then maybe the university was right to give her a shot. Maybe they should have tried harder to keep her in. I'm not saying that nothing is about the individual or choice. But your culture and place of origin are very much a part of you. In some cases, it can still hurt you.

Oh course it's her own failing. And no, the university shouldn't have given her a shot just because she's black. That's just ass-backwards logic to say that government discrimination for minorities is OK because these people supposedly have insurmountable obstacles they can't handle themselves. I thought we wanted equality?

And do they seriously say Native American in Canada?

We generally call them Natives I would say. But America refers to two continents, not the United States. The alternate term Amerindian is also all the rage.

We can't have equality if some people have a foundation to build on and some don't.

We can't have equality if some people are given a special treatment over others because of race.

Centurian: So give them a foundation, not a free shot for things they're not qualified for. At most, a probational shot.

You are absolutely right Invictus, we can't. But you are looking at the dilemna with a closed mind. Think about it. Is no affirmative action equal?

White people arrived here and killed many natives and stole their land and oppressed them and forced them into extreme poverty while growing rich off the resources of the land they stole. They then look at the Natives and say, "ok, equal rights for everyone now. I like it how it is."

That is not equality.

@Pandarsenic
That would be great. I'm all for the foundation. As soon as that is there then we don't need the intervention anymore. But until then we are stuck with affirmative action

Perhaps not, but nor is giving them things over the others. You can't change what's done, and you can't punish us for the sins of our fathers. That is definitely outside justice, equality aside.

But I didn't do that. It didn't happen to the individuals alive today. I shouldn't be punished and they shouldn't benefit from events in the past.

If I was proposing punishing you for the sins of your ancestors I would hold you criminally liable and throw you in prison.
How can it be wrong to give minorities a fighting chance?