I thought the view was the two "triangles" were France, Germany Russia and Russia Austria Turkey and Italy straddled both sides of that ? That seemed to be the orthodoxy when we were discussing that useless millstone around a players neck that is Italy

The aim is to make the orthodoxy irrelevant because you're just that damn good :)

@MM, no, the East/West triangle is France, Germany, England - in the west; not France Germany Russia...

I really don't like when people think of itaky as the straddling the two theaters; itaky is clearly in the eastern theater; more often than not Italy gets involved with Austria and turkey and DMZ with France. This is so common it's almost law. The country that truly does straddle is russia; as in 1901 russia can end up either in the southern theater or the northern theater; entire strategies of diplomacy rely on Russia's choice in 1901. We should start thinking of the theaters in terms of E,G,F and T,A,I with R being the variable.

In a press everything deponds on the diplomacy. In a gunboat game :
* Edi -> Nwg Sea
* Lon -> North Sea
* Liv -> Edi
may seems dangerous but it offers numerous option.

I don't think that the option to go to Yor is usefull.

If France goes to the channel, it is probably to not go to Lon but rather to Belgium.
In any case North Sea can go back to Lon.
And if not, Belgium / Hol / Den are threatened.

If Moscow moved to Stp, North Sea can convoy and Nwg Sea can support the move to Nwy.

It just seems to me That England is better off focusing on either France or Germany. I would be very interested in seeing a game where England started by taking Russian land, and letting France and Germany battle it out alone

England can take Russian land, but it depends upon whether France will ally or at least ignore England. With no need to guard Liverpool against France, then armies can be built to convoy into Norway and later down through St. Petersburg.

Triangles are oversimplified

England should legit just be happy with any arrangement that does not involve its early elimination. They are favored against all neighbors in the long game. I think neutralizing France is probably a higher priority but Russia is a fine target too -- more or less ensures you get St. Petersburg and either Sweden or Belgium if successful, which is a safe, strong enough position to begin expanding in earnest rather than worrying about survival

Attacking Russia is definitely the best way to got, preferably with France as your ally.

WyattS15 - just played in a GB today in which England won by going all out on Russia first. Germany and France battled it out, England gained. Take a look: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=186846

I think CaptMike's opening is best in any case. It allows the North Sea fleet to move back to London and bounce with a French fleet if France is going for London. It also certainly gains England Norway. If France does foolishly go for the channel and then London it's not too late to ally with Russia and make Germany shudder. It is by far England's best opening.

thank you to breaca for pointing out gameID=186846. it was a tough slog and worked because france remained neutral. when going all out against russia, france has to allow it or you will have a french fleet or army in liverpool.

Thx for showing that game Breaca, I'll have to give it a shot next game I play. Do you think it was just luck that no one attacked you,an inexperienced German player or just a solid strategy?

Personally I prefer LIV into YOR, rather than EDN. I don't see a reason why I would want to convoy an army via North Sea rather than NORW, and this means I can defend LON from France taking LON even if he moves into ENG, without jeopardizing the North Sea while attacking NOR with support. I think the defensive loss of army EDN hugely outweighs the potential benefit.

Liverpool to Edinburgh makes sense if you plan to all in on Russia, convoying via North Sea and moving your Norwegian Sea fleet into the Barents Sea to threaten St. Petersburg. This is particularly successful if Turkey and Austria are giving Russia a particularly hard time.

It seems to me that an anti-Russian alliance is great for England...you end up with the whole northern section of the board and lots of options for further expansion. But isn't that what makes it hard to do? You need to get Germany and France to both go along. The advantages for Germany are obvious but there's strong incentives for France to stab you.

All in against tussia nets you norway, probably sweden and stp... And then a whole lot of nothing. Breaking south of stp usually requires denmark. (Convony an army to den, and then convoy den to prussia/liv) you reall need to get that extra route into pru/liv to break tussia, and at that point taking moscow is just so hard, you're likely to stall several years, or head south to the easier options of germany and france... )

So you can safely assume it is a 6 center england at the opening of the mid game. Not a had position to be in. Conparable to france being on 6 from taking por+spain and bel. But England has managed to guarentee an enemy in russia.

Definitely a nice route to mid-game. But one both germany and france should be cautious of.

"I don't think that the option to go to Yor is usefull."

Definitely agree with this. I think it is a bad hedge -- it doesn't make a meaningful difference as to whether or not you cover London with Yorkshire or North Sea, if you have to cover London in A01 you've already failed massively at your one job for the game. The extra options available to you in Scandinavia outweigh the very marginal gains you can have from blocking differently in the worst-case scenario. If you think France is not your friend, don't hedge to try to block (because whether or not your block is successful, you're still losing an insane amount of tempo by deciding to block that early at all). Move to the Channel and Wales and bury him first. At least if you bounce in the Channel, both of you have taken a real tempo hit, instead of just you. And if you think he is your friend, then expand your options in Scandinavia. If you can't tell after the first turn then you're probably? doing something wrong... France can mask his intentions for the first year without a lot of trouble, but Germany and Russia can't, and their attitudes toward you plus your press with France should be enough to figure out whether France is friend or foe.

One plus to moving to Yor is that Russia won't see you as an immediate enemy. If you move to Edin from Liverpool Russia will suspect you to convoy into the Scandanavian. That's the only plus, other than you can defend your bottom half from France, I can imagine... the Edinburg move is definitely more beneficial, but could be catastrophic if you have a paranoid Russian player

Can someone explain what else LIV-EDN gives other than the ability to convoy via Norwegian Sea, and is that a bigger deal than I think it is?

*or is that just a bigger deal than I think it is?

"One plus to moving to Yor is that Russia won't see you as an immediate enemy. "

This means nothing though, as Russia has no power (and I mean literally no power) to stop you from convoying to Norway and moving to the Barents by Fall 01. It may galvanize him into forming different alliances but more likely than not, since Edinburgh is so common and is hardly alarming to Russia, it will have little impact. In addition, one can still convoy to Norway and move to the Barents Sea with Yorkshire, so it really has no difference.

"Can someone explain what else LIV-EDN gives other than the ability to convoy via Norwegian Sea, or is that a bigger deal than I think it is?"

Having options is so critical. Should you want to move the North Sea fleet to any one of the other SC's near it in Fall 01, it allows you to grab potentially 2 SC's (or at least weaken someone else by bouncing). If in a press game, North Sea can also support a unit into another territory to help an ally (like supporting into Belgium.) Since Russia also has northern openings that can work against Germany, having the North Sea bounce Germany in Holland, Belgium, or Denmark is amazingly beneficial in the right situations. Mind you, none of this is possible if it's sitting in Yorkshire, but almost everything you want to do with an army in Yorkshire is possible with it in Edinburgh too.

I always favor Liv-Edi because of the flexibility.

Opening Liv-Yor will, in most cases, lock you into using the North Sea to convoy to Norway. If Russia opens Mos-StP then you can use your fleet in the Norwegian Sea for support, but if not, then your only real option with that fleet is to move to the Barents Sea. Sure, you might have the option of convoying into Belgium with French or German support and taking Norway with your fleet in the Norwegian Sea, but this would still be an option if you'd opened Liv-Edi.

Opening Liv-Edi does not lock you into anything. If Russia opens Mos-StP you'll be able to convoy to Norway with support. If Russia does not move north, you can use your fleet in the Norwegian Sea to convoy and do any number of things with your fleet in the North Sea (including guard London, if necessary).

May I thank those contributors who have made thoughtful and interesting posts. I suppose the most essential requirement for playing England, or any nation, is that you need to be a genuine player, not some goddamn rogue who thinks they can join WebDiplomacy under false colours and get past our wonderful and vigilant Almighty Mods

I believe that last post was pointed towards me.

If it is... I think I should make clear that my intentions towards making a second account were not so that I could use multiple account in one game. I simply wanted a clean slate, if you will. I've already talked to the mods, who have been wonderful I'm helping me, and I've had them ban my new account and allow me to continue the games I played on that account on this account. And yes. The WebDip mods are quite omnipotent and... scary, I think is the best word to use

In* not I'm

@ WyattS14
I unreservedly withdraw any statement that may have implied you are a unscrupulous rogue, and offer an apology. I saw the red Cross against your player name and assumed the rest. I'm glad you have been cleared by the Almighty Mods.

I understand your judgement, no worries

There are too many Wyatts in this thread.

Oh yes. Just one wyatt is too many

This was awkwardly more cordial than most threads here... good job MM

Yes. I was excited to see a heartfelt apology from a member of the Web Dip community