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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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hellalt (24 D)
23 Dec 10 UTC
Southeastern European Tm Fiesta Game
The upcoming winners of the World Cup would like to celebrate their certain victory with a special fiesta game.
It will be wta, 20 D, 36hrs/turn, full press, NOT anon.
64 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
02 Jan 11 UTC
What games involve skills vital to diplomacy.
If one was to hone one's diplo skills by playing other games, what would those games be?
70 replies
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IKE (3845 D)
04 Jan 11 UTC
Fog of war gunbot
http://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=132
On Oli. Annon gunboat 25 D 24 hr phase.
0 replies
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President Eden (2750 D)
03 Jan 11 UTC
FIRST PERSON TO POST WINS!!!!!!!!
gg
6 replies
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Bob Genghiskhan (1238 D)
03 Jan 11 UTC
Our host is apparently a Stephen Fry fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cl-f8NABMM&feature=fvst

And no, Kestas, that wasn't especially tricky camera work. Gridiron is a confusing game.
16 replies
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Jan 11 UTC
FIRST PERSON TO NOT POST WINS!
And everyone who posts below this is hereby a fool, a moron, or an attention-seeking whore!
9 replies
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Hellenic Riot (1626 D(G))
03 Jan 11 UTC
Glitch?
Why can a fleet go into Memphis on the Anc Med....
3 replies
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djbent (2572 D(S))
21 Dec 10 UTC
i would like to play a game
or two. anyone up for one?

between now and saturday, i can only do live games. i can play a real, serious, high or not pot, anon or not, game probs starting around the 2nd or 3rd. any takers? been missing diplomacy, glad to see things are still so vibrant here.
57 replies
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Paulsalomon27 (731 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
OFFICIAL METAGAME
In which I propose a new sort of Diplomacy, an official metagame.
25 replies
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theVerve (100 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Site needs a Chatroom? Discuss....
Just found myself refreshing the Forum as fast as a 5 min live game and it occurred to me that something didn't feel quite right for 2011...
25 replies
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Maniac (189 D(B))
02 Jan 11 UTC
Alternative Player of the Year Awards.
Nominations are now open.
51 replies
Open
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
03 Jan 11 UTC
THIRD PERSON TO POST WINS!!!!!!!!!!!
one rule: no double posting
9 replies
Open
☺ (1304 D)
03 Jan 11 UTC
Statistics Spreadsheet
Inside:
14 replies
Open
charlesf (100 D)
18 Dec 10 UTC
What webDiplomacy really needs...
I very much miss multilateral negotiations here. Next to global broadcasts and bilateral correspondence, there ought to be the option to adress several (but not all) players at once. It's a very basic and very necessary feature that all Diplomacy judges have. webDiplomacy really needs to up its game on that one.
132 replies
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☺ (1304 D)
03 Jan 11 UTC
Does anyone know...
... If, using Windows Live SkyDrive, if I have permissions set such that anyone can view a spreadsheet, will they be able to edit a pivot table?
0 replies
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☺ (1304 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Quantitative Easing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k

Has anyone seen this yet? This is fantastic.
1 reply
Open
mykemosabe (151 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
why can't I play any more??
I singed up for a live game. 8 min. befor it started, my computer compleatly died. I got my laptop out,but couldn't get on line until spring 1902. put in orders which went through. then all my games went to 533 days until ,my next move including my live game...HELP!!!
8 replies
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Dan Wang (1194 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Gunboat 30 points PPSC anonymous 24 hour phases
1 reply
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
02 Jan 11 UTC
best Allaince Openings
A while ago there was a thread called this that had some pretty cool allainces posted. Can anyone link me to that thread, as I want to try some of them out.
0 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
2010 Player of the Year
As some of you recall, I released a series of stats last year, as an unofficial player of the year award, using the data I get for Ghost-Rating.

Here is the 2010 version. (If someone formats it with links by each player's name I would be really grateful)
90 replies
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Crazyter (1335 D(G))
31 Dec 10 UTC
Please recommend other games
I am thinking seriously of taking a break from dip. The cut-throat stabbing is really taking its toll...
44 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
New Ghost=Rating lists up
Same stuff as usual, January list & All-time lists are up.

http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net
22 replies
Open
figlesquidge (2131 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE READ THE SITE RULES
http://tinyurl.com/wdSiteRules
3 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Motivational Quotes
Anyone have any favorites? The Calvin Coolidge quote I have on my desk about persistence utterly failed to motivate me in 2010 and needs replacing.
11 replies
Open
anlari (8640 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Is there a way to colour Crete / Sardinia?
Is there?
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
27 Dec 10 UTC
This Time On Philosophy Weekly: Picard And Sisko Argue Ethics--Ends vs. Means!
We started to have a debate about this in the last topical post, so I thought I'd give it the full attention it deserves, since it IS one of greatest dilemmas in all of ethical thought and conduct. And, luckily enough we have two GREAT advocates for the opposing positions: Captain Jean-Luc Picard and Captain Benjamin Sisko! ;) So, as a fun end of the year discussion, if ends DO justify the means, to what extent, and if they DON'T...then what IS justifiable?
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spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
"i make the whole processes of calculating utility a waste of time"

But how else can one arrive at a sound practical decision?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Obiwanism is a GREAT theory! XD

And as I've said, you CAN tell them apart and place correct values...
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
One flaw I can in utilitarianism (my limited understanding, that is), is that it assumes that we are concerned with all humanity, rather than only those who are closer to us, such as our nationality, business, or family.
For myself I don't think I see this as a flaw but I suppose I could see how one might would.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
typo.. one flaw I can *see in utilitarianism...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
That's not a flaw--that's the intent.

Remember what Mill said, he famously states "Everyone counts for one."

So it's not so much a flaw as a designed part of the system that you're not supposed to value family members or friends or Mozarts any higher.

Hence the advent of OBIWANISM! Because Obiwan KNOWS folks are going to inevitably do that, and that familial and friendly ties SHOULD and DO mean more, and that the Mozarts SHOULD and WILL ultimately produce more and greater things and thus deserve priority!

Obiwanism, ho! :p
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
(Seriously, I wonder if I ever publish a book...if I titled a chapter that, how many here would get the joke? I'd do it just for that!) XD
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
All heil obiwanism!

Obi, it migh be a flaw. Consider the following scenario: saving the lives of your immediate family / closest friends versus an (indertiminate) greater number of strangers. Which would obiwanism choose, and which would utilitarianism choose?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Whoa--all "heil" obiwanism?

Did someone sneak into my theory and stick an angry Austrian ex-artist in there when I wasn't looking? XD

Given your scenario:

Utilitarianism would decree that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one. (Thank you, Spock!) So then Utilitarian would save the others.

Obiwanism would realize that the choice is more dependent on the chooser rather than the choosee--obiwanism is influenced by the Hobbesian view of human beings in that it agrees with the view that, be they Mozarts or workers, all men are legally equal AND all men are "desire-pursuing machines." THEREFORE the desires of the chooser would be paramount: we might think that normally this would mean an unfair advantage for the people on the rails who happened to be friends of the obiwanite--but not so! The true obiwanist, again, is concerned with desire, and the obiwanite's first and foremost desire, of course, is philosophically-based, and so as the Great Philosopher once said, there is nothing the philosopher cares more for than the truth, ergo there is nothing the obiwanite cares more for than the greatest outcome, and if that means the sacrifice of friends and family so that Einstein might live on, then the obiwanite would do so.

Friends and family, then, certainly are a strong attraction to the obiwanite, but as the obiwanite has a vested interest in GREATNESS first and foremost, as greatness is the greatest truth and the obiwanite has a duty to the truth, if the friends and family of the obiwanite numbered 10 and there was one Shakespeare on the tracks, his first manuscript for "Macbeth" in hand...

Macbeth would have to live on, and the family...well, he'd have to hope they'd get out the way or else not be killed or at least die quickly.

(The original founder of obiwanism, however, would like to admit a bias in this matter as he isn't particularly close with his family and has a very small circle of friends...and as much as he loves THEM, he can't see himself sacrificing SHAKESPEARE, alive and writing, or Mozart or Einstein, for them, and they're actresses, they'd understand, but he couldn't do it...maybe for one he'd be very tempted, but as she already is hitched and the obiwanism founder agrees with the philosopher Higgins that he shall NEVER let a woman in his life...yeah, obiwanism has to side with greatness, even on the rare occaision it'd cost him someone the obiwanite might care about. But that's a RARE occaision, anyway...)
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
(I'm not sure if that's the most narcisstic thing I've ever written here or just the stupidest...eh, why not, it can be both! It's New Years, damnit, the official holiday for stupid behavior!) ;)
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
BUT to those who think that family was more important (than a greater number of strangers), then utilitarianism would be a flawed philosophy? This is what I ment by *some*might think it a flaw. This you agree is true I take it?
Reducing the impact somewhat, let's reduce "saving the lives of" to "benefiting the "greater number", and when we bring family/friends into the equation, whom does utilitarianism favor?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Again, it's not the philosophy that's flawed--just the people who practice it.

Including obiwanism--even if it were Shakespeare, Mozart, AND Nietzsche on the train tracks, I'd let all three get run over for that one stupid...damn her...how is it you spend five years of a friendship ARGUING with someone, ARGUING, and for some reason I can't honestly say I'd do the logical thing here and allow her to be run over to save three of the greatest minds in history...
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
Obi, the people in my example who think utilitarianism are flawed don't practice utilitarianism. Clearly.
spyman (424 D(G))
01 Jan 11 UTC
Sorry another typo... utilitarianism *is flawed
Fasces349 (0 DX)
01 Jan 11 UTC
"I'm not saying that Person A is a Mozart and no one knows it and Person B a worker, but rather Person A IS ALREADY KNOWN TO BE a Mozart, and Person B is a worker."
but that wont always be the case, and according to probability, Mozart is more likely to be a Person B then a Person A.

"as i'm sure for practical reasons i'm liable to reject all ideologies, except those which allow that they can't provide the best answer for every situation (like democracy, which allows that people will change laws for what suits the given situation...)"
BULLSHIT! The opposite of progress is congress. One of the many problems with democracy is how long it takes to change laws, Meanwhile, in oligarchy, should the leaders find out about the situation, a law is changed instantly to better the country.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
01 Jan 11 UTC
"And as I've said, you CAN tell them apart and place correct values..."
Not in every situation, and I am actually going to side with Orathaic here.

"Utilitarianism would decree that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one."
So you then agree that ends justify means.
Putin33 (111 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
"heil"

Heil means salvation or welfare. It doesn't mean "hail". "Hail" is Sei gegrüßt.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Russian?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
I'm pretty sure "heil" is "hail" in German and Yiddish?
baumhaeuer (245 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Obiwanism's considerations of human equality are odd.

Let me see...
1. All humans are desire seeking machines.
2. All humans have a base rate of greatness, hence all humans are equal.
3. If that base rate is improved upon by effort in arts, sciences, etc. the person
resulting person is greater than those who had not built on the base.
4. The greater person also has greater contribution to the obiwanite and the world than the
average joe who did not build on his greatness-base, and should be desired
as such by the obiwanite.

The one practical out-working of point 4 that obi discusses is that one great person is worth multiple non-greats, and, as such, should be saved from death in favor of them.
While this scenario would hardly ever happen, it DOES place a VERY LARGE emphasis on deferring to the benefit of the Great Name, as I'll call the great person.

The main source of the problem for me, then, is that, while obiwanism says everyone is equal, it really only means that they have equal potentiality, since, after all, they are obviously, plainly, clearly NOT equal the way obi consistently gives up many for one. People are not equal in any fundamental manner. They have rights, but those rights get ranked according to who is more important, who is a mozart or Descartes or whatever.

Obiwanobiwan, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting that idea! I think I finally understand the Ubermensch now (not that I like him, just understand him)! If you don't see the connection, I'll PM you an explanation, if you'd like.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Obiwan, your missing the point, and for that reason I am giving up on you.

There is more likely to be a Mozart in 1000 deaths then in the 1 death.

You also said that each life isn't equal, then why are you so left wing.
Putin33 (111 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
"You also said that each life isn't equal, then why are you so left wing."

He isn't. He's a Nietzschean posing as a leftwinger.
fiedler (1293 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
He isn't. He's a gibbering imbecile posing as an intellectual.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Ummm...

I'm NOT a leftwinger.
I'm NOT a rightwinger. (Unless you're talking hockey, wanted to play there as a kid!) ;)
And I'm NOT a Nietzschean, for as I'v said before, to say "I am a Nietzschean" is to miss the point of the wriotings of a person who wanted to DISPELL dogmas and people all clustering around one person like that...I know Foucault used the term to describe himself, and while I don't feel strongly about his work one way or the other, I DO feel strongly he missed a basic point of Nietzsche's work if he thinks he can be a disciple of someone who entitled a book "The Antichrist."
I'm NOT a gibbering imbecile posing as an intellectual.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again to be clear:

I am a person, like any of you, and I just happen to have a strong and incredibly driving passion towards literature and theatre and philosophy, such that it is the goal of my life to try and produce something worthwhile in one of those fields, and as I've said before, THIS POST is not of that wroth, nor have any of my posts been, not has anything I have yet written, I would guess (I don't klnow, I've never tried to publish any of my finished works.)

For me this 1. Fun 2. Sometimes enlightening and engaging when others come with great insight and their own opinions 3. A way for me to try out ideas I have to see how well I can defend my viewpoints and its strengths and weaknesses and listen to others, os it's also a learning experience, and 4. It's FUN.

I don't pretend to be or pretend this to be anything else--so if you are intent on slapping labels on me or treating me as if I'm someone who acts as if he knows everything and knows nothting, you'll be severely dissapointed, as quite frankly I have already stated that I learn here, and so DON'T act is if I know everything...

But by that same token, when I post my opinion...pretty hard to give your opinion with any confidence or conviction and NOT believe you know what you're talking about in regards to your point, so you'll forgive my not stammering.

Anyway, onto the actual questions someone posted:

@Fasces:

And I HAVE gone over that at length, Fasces, but you don't seem to listen or you reject my position; if it's the latter then you need to tell me, as I'm keeping my position until it's successfully challenged--why would I dump it just to dump it if I really believed in it?--and if it's the former, here it is again:

In my scenario AND in my definition, "a Mozart" is ALREADY ESTABLISHED AS SUCH. That is, it is no mystery if there is a Mozart on the tracks or not, if he is truly a Mozart then he is clearly there and already evident as a Mozart as he has ARLEADY established himself as being such through works that have had REACH, that have had an AFFECT, that have had INFLUENCE.

Amongst the 100 workers, there might be a man named Shakespeare and one named Salieri and one named Steinbeck, but because these men have NOT published their works, and so their works HAVE NO REACH, they are NOT established as Mozart figures and can only be treated as worker figures, because OTHEREWISE we would have to assume that EVERYONE is or could be, at any moment, a Mozart, and well...

*When everyone's special, NO ONE IS.*

So there you have it, my position and your issue answered--there is NOT likely to be a Mozart in the 100 deaths as there are in the 1, as the 1 is the ONLY ONE who is a Mozart figure, and the rest are workers forever unless they someday become Mozarts, and even then, they are not Mozarts at the moment I killed them, and showed me no signs of their ever BECOMING a Mozart...

So unless you want to tell me that a worker was writing the lines of "Hamlet" all along the rails as he laid them down, I cannot and do not consider them to be Mozarts, and so the only one to lose is the one, and the hundred workers are the hundred and cannot be considered Mozarts, not at the time when this decision needs to be made who to save.



@baumhaeuer:

You have a correct interpretation of my view--with one exception.

As far as RIGHTS go, I stand by Locke and Jefferson, there is no problem LEGALLY in the phrase "All men are created equal,' that's a good basis for government, and so NO, a Mozart doesn't get away with the murder of five workers just because he's a Mozart.

LEGALLY they have equal rights, for three reasons:

-It is a system which LEGALLY creates inequality that risks losing greatness; all people deserve the same basic potential in life that the law and givernment can provide, and so to deny a population of people that equality in favor of others isn;t only wrong but illogical as not only have we now potentially sacrificed a great many potential Mozarts when there was no need to (giving someone an education is NOT the same as deciding who must die, whith a split-second to choose, in a train accident, so we can afford to treat all newborns as if they have the potential to become a Mozart) but on the TOHER SIDE, to treat the children that are deemed Mozart-possibilities higher than the others BEFORE they rightfully earn distinction by actually becoming a Mozart is illogical and goes against the basic principle that you ACQUIRE your status as a Mozart, it is not innate.

-To treat a Mozart differently leagally than another is to raise class structures, which I'm not too keen on, but at any rate there's no reason to make them more rigid, and to do so through an act that would certainly seem unjust at that

-To NOT give everyone equal rights at the start is to imply that some are already worth more than others, and that would defeat the notion that man has a base of greatness from which he may build, which I, for the most part, agree with, man DOES have a base of potential greatness when born, and so it's a race in life to see who becomes the greatest; I would add that this base, over many generations, does rise, however, as we may sense the human race, even minutely, raising on the whole, so where once the discovery of the Pythagorean Theorem was enough to catapult Pythagorous to a status that we remember, today billions know that theorem, even folks like ME who are HORRIBLE at math! Hence, man's overall undertstanding and greatness-level in regards to mathematical brilliance and comprehension has risen, and so the base, too, has risen.


As for my "Mozart" being an Ubermensch...he is and he isn't, he's certainly strongly influenced by that idea and by George Bernard Shaw's idea, but they're not direct analogues (ie, I don't entirely agree with Nietzsche that "man" is but a bridge between Animal and Superman, and I certainly don't agree with the eugenics theories of Shaw, though in all fairness to the latter eugenics WAS a popular idea in the early 20th century due to fears of over-population and overuse of resources, and Shaw never said he wanted to practice it based on race or ethnicity or religion, but rather simpy by analyzing every person every so poften and, humorously enough "asking them to justify their existence." XD A bad idea and one we can't excuse Shaw of, it was a poor idea and definitely the blackest mark on what's otherwise an increible career and life that spanned over 90 years and over 60 plays--and that's just his PLAYS, he was unbelievably prolific in his writing--but it wasn't racially charged and it was something of a product of his time, so we can at least understand somewhat why Shaw said what he said, even if we cannot agree with it at all or necessarily "forgive" Shaw for saying it.)

The Artist--what I simply refer to the Mozart figures in my writings--is really not an "artist" in the way you or I normally think of an artist.

He is not a mere painter or sketch artist or musician or writer; an Artist may be a scientist or a social reformer or what have you.

An Artist is someone who CREATES and creates in and on the world around them.

Nietzsche said there are Masters and Slaves in morality.
Clint Eastwood said "There's two kinds of people in this world, my friend--those with loaded guns, and those who dig."

And to me there are those who treat existence as their canvas and the palces and people of the world as their palette and try to distinguish themselves amongs the herd while simultaneously trying to help others to attain their status--the Artist--and then the herd of people and physical facts and buildings and files and paperwork and whatnot that leaves so much of the rest of the work a blur--the Art.

The Master has no LEGAL domain over the Slave for Nietzsche.
And the same for Eastwood's Loaded Gunman over the Men With No Loaded Gun.
And the Artist has no legal domain over the Art.

All three merely have a prominence about them, and it's this prominence that often leads to their perceived dominance.


203 replies
Dan Wang (1194 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Gunboat 40 points PPSC anonymous 24 hour phases
1 reply
Open
peterwiggin (15158 D)
02 Jan 11 UTC
School of War Winter 2011 Opening DIscussion
There's no reason we can't all learn something while we wait for the first game to start.
9 replies
Open
butterhead (90 D)
01 Jan 11 UTC
Good old Classic game...
Lets get back to the Basics of Diplomacy...
12 hour phases, 5 D, Anon... just a regular map...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=45838
17 replies
Open
ComradeGrumbles (0 DX)
02 Jan 11 UTC
Attack! by Eagle Games... any other players out there?
Are there any other players out there who enjoy Eagle Games' "Attack!"? I was wondering if anyone had any cool adjusted house rules for it.
0 replies
Open
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