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jpchewy01 (100 D)
24 Sep 08 UTC
real strategists wanted
please join my game, real strategists wanted, take all the time you wa
it was cut off after that
0 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
23 Sep 08 UTC
New Winner Take All game for newbies - 40 point bet
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5807

Game titled Dangle My Cherry
2 replies
Open
MickFlanagen (100 D)
23 Sep 08 UTC
looking for a player
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5811
Points-per-supply-center
24 hours/phase: Normal pace
0 replies
Open
Zarathustra (3672 D)
23 Sep 08 UTC
Question on Winnings for Points Per Supply Center
There is a point of contention between another player and I that I am seeking to resolve. He says that when winning a PPSC game (18+ SC) you only get the 18 SC amount of points. I claim that you get the proportion of points equal to the number of centers claimed. Who is right?
2 replies
Open
hermanobrown (925 D)
23 Sep 08 UTC
No turn on weekend
I create a game to play just only during the week. I suggest that everybody finallize theirs orders quicly during the week and let weekend for rest
0 replies
Open
david707 (100 D)
23 Sep 08 UTC
Join "The war of the everest"
5 points to join (mainly for new players)
36 hour turns
points per supply centre
have fun!
1 reply
Open
Masterker (100 D)
23 Sep 08 UTC
New game
Have set up a game called war of the everest please join will start in 36 hours from when this is sent out.
1 reply
Open
EdiBirsan (1469 D(B))
23 Sep 08 UTC
EOG: New Game Three Way draw G17 F7 T10
I took this game over in the Winter of 1901 when Germany had not moved for two complete seasons. The French had an army in Belgium the English a fleet in Holland,
Russia had 7 with Norway,Sweden, Rumania and had built a fleet in the north coast,
Italy had screwed up his orders and had not gotten any builds while Austria and Turkey were intermingled diplomatically and about to make a change in direction.
My goal in the game was to see if I could make something of this wild situation and at the same time learn something about the site.
In 02 I was able to talk the English out of Holland as he started on his game long war with England with his buddy in Italy continuing in the Jihad. Then Russia and Turkey made amends and turned on Austria.
At this point I was trying to decide which way to go when I received a letter from the Russians telling me 'I want to move my tanks to Prussia and Silesia to get them into action." This blew my mind and decided for me that I would have to stay with France and concentrate on the Russians. I wrote to the Russians that this would mean war. That move I went to Sweden and Silesia as a precaution and Russia went to Prussia 'as a mistake'. My orders worked. From there it was a tactical battle and race against time against the Russians with them losing in the north and in the center.
Then with the Russians down to 5 and Germany at 10 or so he dropped. How rude.
The next 3 centers were rather easy and I was able to get an army in Armenia to really shake up the Turks. The Turks previous position was that either he or I were going to die in the game, and as I was allied with the French who was having a hard time with the Italians and the English, I had a choice of going for a very easy win that was not worth it or trying to make a point on how to end games in a somewhat social manner.
So I convinced the Turks to take a three draw with France and I. Then the weirdness happened. England agreed to be out of the draw. Then the weirdness happened when Italy with two units *Portugal and Venice, declared that he was against the draw because he wanted "my one point". Anti social behavior could not be rewarded, so the game was delayed a game year and I had to eliminate both England and ITaly so that there were only three of us.
One of the things this points out is the unfortunate situation in which under these house rules it appears that you cannot have a draw that does not include all survivors.
This translates out as a Kill Policy for most small countries since you cannot end a game without their vote. This may have been the intention in the original rules but those rules were written with a face to face game and social limits in mind, not the endless play that postal or email allows. So unfortunately England had to die along with Italy who was being just a kid looking at the scoring system herein.
Along the way in the game, Austria got knocked down to one center and I was content to leave him in the game at that (before the Kill nature of the ending a game became apparent) but then he dropped and was replaced by another player for reasons unknown and wound up dead in a squeeze play between Turkey and Germany.

How's that for an end of game statement?
10 replies
Open
Blackheath Wanderer (0 DX)
17 Sep 08 UTC
Iraq: A legal war. Discuss
Under the terms of the ceasefire at the end of the first Gulf War, the Iraqi regime was given 12 months to prove that it had disarmed itself of WMD.

12 years later it had not and therefore the recommencement of the ground assault was perfectly valid as Iraq was in breach of the UN brokered ceasefire resolution.

Thoughts?
78 replies
Open
ninja_trout (119 D)
23 Sep 08 UTC
New Game, get it while its hot!
New game called Lets get it on! Bet is only 25 and 20 hour/phase. All welcome!!!
0 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
18 Sep 08 UTC
Capitalism
being very anti-capitalist, I can't see why anyone could think thats it's a good system. why do you think it is
127 replies
Open
Pareno (108 D)
22 Sep 08 UTC
TOTAL GLOBAL SOCIO-ECONOMIC COLLAPSE
Whoa.

Yup, that’s what the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States of America said we were ONE day away from on Friday, 19SEP08.

<B><I>That would be a bad thing, M-kay?</I></B>

Comments? Causes?

IMHO, the main cause is the $10 trillion national debt of the United States of America. What do you think?
12 replies
Open
EdiBirsan (1469 D(B))
22 Sep 08 UTC
DRAW REQUEST game A3 Germany-France-Turkey
The game is requested to be a draw G 17/F7/T 10
Please await the posting by the other two and then do what ever it is that is needed.
6 replies
Open
WhiteSammy (132 D)
22 Sep 08 UTC
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!
jugglingbeast,

YOU'RE THE 8521st AND NEWEST PERSON TO BECOME A MEMBER ON PHPDIPLOMACY.NET

YOU WIN GAMES FULL OF LYING, BACKSTABBING, AND SELF-CENTERED EGOTISTICAL LOONIES WHO WANT TO USE YOU TO FURTHER THEIR DIPLOMACY CAREER.
0 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
19 Sep 08 UTC
essay on agriculture and the leisure time of primitive culture
now that I think of it, I challenge someone to find evidence that 'primitives' DONT have more leisure time than us. It's a pretty widly accepted fact, so where your proof?

anyway this essay is for um... doc or something
Sicarius (673 D)
19 Sep 08 UTC
Thesis #9: Agriculture is difficult, dangerous and unhealthy.
by Jason Godesky
The previous thesis glossed over a number of significant points, which we must now go back and revisit in greater detail. The most glaring of these glosses is probably the assertion that agriculture is a risky, marginal and difficult means of acquiring food. Many readers would certainly object that agriculture provides a stable, secure and reliable source of food. After all, it was the bounty of agriculture that allowed us to give up hunting and gathering, constantly wandering and wondering where our next meal would come from, giving us the time to build civilization. That is the common picture we’ve all been told, but it is also the opposite of truth. In fact, the Neolithic Revolution was, to use Jared Diamond’s turn of phrase, “the worst mistake in the history of the human race.”

It is taken for granted in our culture that agriculture is the path of least resistance, an immediately obvious advantage over any other subsistence technology. Agriculturalist philosophers such as Thomas Hobbes assure us–without any empirical validation–that any other way of life is “solitary, nasty, brutish and short.�? Before agriculture, humans lived like animals, constantly in search of food, always on the brink of starvation. With agriculture came ease and security, and a better way of life. How can we ask why the Agricultural Revolution occurred? The question is how, not why; once agriculture appeared, its superiority would be so obvious, and it would be adopted by all.

This view of agriculture has no grounding in reality, but it is a necessary myth for our civilization to hold. We would not be agriculturalists today if we did not. This idea is a necessary meme for the functioning of an agriculturalist society, in order to maintain itself over generations. The traditional view can be broken down into four myths, which we must address in turn:

Agriculture is the path of least resistance.
Agriculture creates a more stable and secure food supply.
Agriculture leads to greater health and nutrition.
Agriculture allows more leisure time and a generally higher quality of life.
Myth #1: Agriculture is the path of least resistance.
That agriculture represents the easiest or simplest way of attaining one’s food cannot be supported logically or empirically. Whereas hunter-gatherers must only accomplish the work equivalent to harvesting, and that on a low-intensity, rolling basis, an agriculturalist must also plant and tend to their crops. Agriculture is the most intensive form of cultivation, often requiring massive projects such as irrigation or terracing. This is borne out by empirical data. Due to the law of diminishing returns, though agriculture produces the most food absolutely, the ratio of food per unit of labor is in fact higher than any other subsistence technology. Agriculturalists must work harder for their food than anyone else. (Harris, 1993) In modern “petroculture,” 10 calories of fossil fuels are burned for every 1 calorie of food produced. Horticulturalists have the most efficient lifestyle; foragers have the easiest lifestyle. Ours produces the most calories, but is also the most grossly inefficient.

Myth #2: Agriculture creates a more stable and secure food supply.
If agriculture is a more difficult means of attaining food, at least it is more secure, no? Where a forager won’t know if they will eat today or not, an agriculturalist can be assured she’ll have food for the day. This, as it turns out, is also a false statement. In all but the most marginal environments, a gatherer has a near 100% chance of finding some form of plant food, whereas the probability of a hunter’s success lies closer to 25%. This has led to an emphasis on sharing in many forager societies, allowing them to take advantage of multiplicative probability. Whereas the chance of a single hunter retrieving nothing on a given day is 75%, the chances that ten will come back with nothing is 0.75 x 10 = 5.63%. If even one hunter makes a kill on a given day, then the band will eat. (Lee, 2000)

On the other hand, few organisms are domesticable compared to the diversity of all wild species available for food. Moreover, those species which are domesticable are very closely related to each other. Inclement conditions for one domesticate, then, are all the more likely to affect all of the staples, leading to a severe famine. Agriculturalists are forced to depend on a very narrow selection of closely related plants and animals for food, and this makes them highly susceptible to famine. There are also wars and political pressures which are more often the causes of famine than natural conditions. These are the results of the complex political structures which often require agriculture in order to exist. When Lee studied the Ju/’Hoansi in the Kalahari desert (2000), the region was in the midst of a severe draught. The neighboring Bantu farmers and pastoralists were dying by the thousands of starvation; the Ju/’Hoansi, however, were able to subsist very healthily on an average of two hours of foraging a day.

Myth #3: Agriculture leads to greater health and nutrition.
There is mounting evidence that agriculture may be very unhealthy. Of course, it is well known that most epidemic diseases would not exist if not for agriculture (Diamond, 1987). Most epidemic diseases are not “native�? to the human system—this should be evident from their virulence, as it is generally maladaptive for an organism to kill or even hinder its host’s survival. Chicken pox, cholera, and plague, for example, were all animal diseases which had the chance to jump the species barrier due to the newfound proximity of humans and other animals which followed domestication. Others, such as malaria, were spread by agricultural practices (malaria only became so virulent when slash-and-burn agriculture attracted mosquitoes to human population centers). (Diamond, 1997). Even so, these diseases and others might not have ever achieved their impact if not for the large, dense populations which agriculture created. Whereas an epidemic disease among foragers may destroy at most a single band of 25, with the advent of cities and extended trade networks, the threat of such diseases became global for the first time.

This is, of course, a long-term impact of agriculture. The immediate effects are little better. Excavations at Dickson’s Mounds show a sharp drop in all the customary benchmarks of health and nutrition, and also signs of immediate malnutrition. They evidence a catastrophically shorter life expectancy and smaller stature (indicating greater malnutrition). (Goodman & Armelagos, 2000) It is only in the past fifty years that the heights of Western Americans and Europeans, with the modern “affluent malnutrition,�? have come to match those of their Mesolithic forager ancestors. Greeks and Turks still have not attained the full stature of their Mesolithic ancestors.

Myth #4: Agriculture allows more leisure time and a generally higher quality of life.
Does agriculture at least provide more leisure time, and a generally higher quality of life? As we have already seen, agriculturalists must work much harder for their food than foragers; obviously, the argument that agriculture allows more leisure time is based on the untenable, ultimately philosophical, contention that agriculture is the “path of least resistance.�? Some argue that by providing for specialists, agriculture provides greater leisure time. However, such specialists must work comparable hours to farmers to offset the gross inefficiencies of agriculture. Whether by plowing the earth, making pots, or writing software, all agriculturalists must spend the majority of their life working for their food–whether directly, or trading their labor for various tokens that can be exchanged for food. Only the elites–what Thorstein Veblen called “the leisure class”–have greater leisure time. This class has an unprecedented amount of leisure, being able to shed even the few hours of walking that a forager must put in every day.

If by quality of life we mean health, then, as discussed above, agriculture is still a bad idea. To agriculture we owe disease, malnutrition and famine: things nearly unheard of to our Mesolithic ancestors (save perhaps for some foragers living in the most marginal areas, like the Arctic Circle), things we take for granted now as necessary and eternal evils. Even today, among the elites of the West, we have only achieved what some researchers have termed “affluent malnutrition.” We eat large quantities of food, yes; but they are so poorly mismatched to the evolutionary needs of our species as to constitute outright malnutrition in its own right. Though we alone of all the agricultural peoples in history have the affluence to eat truly healthy foods (and even among us, the lower–and often, even the middle–class cannot afford such luxuries as healthy food), we are still sickly and in poor health because of agriculture, combining a sedentary lifestyle and a high-carbohydrate diet lacking in other essential nutrients.

Perhaps we should define “quality of life�? in more abstract terms? This is precisely what makes it such a slippery concept, because it becomes impossible to gauge empirically. It may be offered as counter-point that “refined�? or “high�? culture—art, music, etc.—owes itself to agriculture. The music of Bach no doubt does; however, we have archaeological evidence of musical instruments predating the Agricultural Revolution. The polyphonic complexity of Pygmy songs was matched in Europe only in the 14th century. Without agriculture, Michelangelo would no doubt have painted something else. Art itself, though, dates back to the Upper Paleolithic. Those elements so often referred to as “civilized�? in fact have nothing to do with civilization; religion, music, art, and other such abstract cultural elements existed before agriculture, and are to be found in all forager societies. They are universals of human culture, however we get our food. The caves of Lascaux stand as an excellent counter-point to the contention that fine art can only develop from an agricultural society.

By any definition of “quality of life,�? we cannot say that agriculture increased it in any way.

Agriculture is not entirely without benefit, though. There are certain advantages to an agricultural system, and these are quite telling. Agriculture allows for sedentism. While not impossible, it is difficult for a forager group to remain sedentary over long periods of time. Whereas an acre of wild land will have a fraction of its biomass consisting of edible human food, an acre of farmland is entirely human food. This denser concentration of food allows a denser concentration of population. Whereas a forager will eventually begin to drain the resources of the surrounding country and have to move on, an agriculturalist must remain in one place, as agriculture represents a heavy investment into the location of the settlement. (Gilman, 1981) Agriculture also allows two things to be accomplished, and in fact, forces them: the creation of a higher population, and the production of a surplus.

The creation of a higher population, of course, is neither good nor bad to the general population itself. Nor is the creation of a surplus which is, by definition, unnecessary. While perhaps needed by populations facing periodic famine, as we have seen, this is an affliction of agriculturalists, not foragers. Sedentism, also, cannot be considered an advantage. In fact, it is the sedentary lifestyle of the West which leads to so much of our health problems (cf. Gladwell, 2000) However, as neutral as these are, there is one element of society to whom they are clear advantages: the elites. Before the modern era, elites were those able to control human capital more often than physical resources directly. (Hirth, 1992) They brokered more in esteem, opinion and influence than tangible wealth. A larger population, then, was advantageous to prehistoric, emergent elites, just as a larger treasury is advantageous to modern elites. Sedentism makes populations easier to control. It was nearly impossible for the Czar to control the Steppes nomads until they were co-opted as the Cossocks, for example. The surplus is no doubt the most important aspect, and, I believe, what drove the adoption of agriculture in the first place. With a surplus, specialists were able to develop, including elites themselves. However, emergent elites—“Big Men�?—require surpluses for the competitive feasting which creates their power, by bolstering their influence.

Agriculture helps the elites by making most of humanity suffer. It is, as Jared Diamond put it, a mistake we are still trying to recover from. As he ends his famous article:

Hunter-gatherers practiced the most successful and logest-lasting life style in human history. In contrast, we’re still struggling with the mess into which agriculture has tumbled us, and it’s unclear whether we can solve it. Suppose that an archaeologist who had visited from outer space were trying to explain human history to his fellow spacelings. He might illustrate the results of his digs by a 24-hour clock on which one hour represents 100,000 years of real past time. If the history of the human race began at midnight, then we would now be almost at the end of our first day. We lived as hunter-gatherers for nearly the whole of that day, from midnight through dawn, noon, and sunset. Finally, at 11:54 p. m. we adopted agriculture. As our second midnight approaches, will the plight of famine-stricken peasants gradually spread to engulf us all? Or will we somehow achieve those seductive blessings that we imagine behind agriculture’s glittering façade, and that have so far eluded us?

Bibliography
Diamond, J.
1987 The worst mistake in the history of the human race. In: Discover, May 1987
1997 Guns, germs and steel: the fate of human societies. London: Random House.
Gilman, A.
1981 The development of social stratification in Bronze Age Europe. In: Current Anthropology 22(1) pp. 1-23
Gladwell, M.
2000 The Pima paradox. In: Goodman, A.H., Dufour, D.L. & Pelto, G.H., Nutritional anthropology: biocultural perspectives on food and nutrition. Mountain View: Mayfield Publishing Company.
Goodman, A. and Armelagos, G.
2000 Disease and death at Dr. Dickson’s mounds. In: Goodman, A.H., Dufour, D.L. & Pelto, G.H., Nutritional anthropology: biocultural perspectives on food and nutrition. Mountain View: Mayfield Publishing Company.
Harris, M.
1993 Culture, people, nature: an introduction to general anthropology, 6th edition. New York: Harper Collins College Publishers.
Hirth, K.
1992 Interregional exchange as elite behavior: an evolutionary perspective. In: Chase, D.Z. and Chase, A.F., Mesoamerican elites: an archaeological assessment. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press.
Lee, R.
2000 What hunters do for a living, or, how to make out on scarce resources. In: Goodman, A.H., Dufour, D.L. & Pelto, G.H., Nutritional anthropology: biocultural perspectives on food and nutrition. Mountain View: Mayfield Publishing Company.
McCain (100 D)
19 Sep 08 UTC
says the guy typing on a computer to post an article on the internet.
Sicarius (673 D)
19 Sep 08 UTC
you're screename is McCain. your opinion doesnt matter.

sorry if thats disrespectful
just dont have a whole lot of respect for old white rich racist power hungry peices of shit
flashman (2274 D(G))
19 Sep 08 UTC
So,

Primitives had a lot of leisure time; and

Primitives used a lot of violence to make progress;

Therefore, Sicarius is primitive...

That Greek bloke was correct after all.
Sicarius (673 D)
19 Sep 08 UTC
great site for primitivist arguments

http://anthropik.com/thirty/
mapleleaf (0 DX)
19 Sep 08 UTC
One point to consider. In a hunter-gatherer society, hunting and gathering takes up a lot of your time. You do not have time to do much else except drag your worn out ass back to the cave at the end of the day.

You couldn't be a fireman or an engineer. H-g societies developed far more slowly than food production societies because f-p societies could feed way more people, so specialists, like firemen, could live there. Everybody did not have to hunt and gather.

That particular(h-g) way of life has had it's day in court, Sicarius, and is not prevalent today for a reason.
Katsarephat (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
McCain and Sicarius: Good job with the ad hominems. Would it kill either of you to come up with original arguments free of logical fallacies?
You're A Towel (103 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Good evening gentlemen (And gentlewomen. Hurrah for political correctness. You fags). I'm just wondering how much time Sicarius spends playing diplomacy compared to the lengthy controversial essays and discussions he (or she, can't tell) in the forum for a website created solely to play diplomacy. And as much as I hate John McCain's policies, disregarding someone's opinions based on their name (which is also a popular brand of frozen potato products. Oven chips > American foreign policy) isn't really good etiquette. Or in any way based on rational thinking.

Can't we agree to disagree?
Where's the love?
Churchill (2280 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Eugh: it's back...
DukeAtreides (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Anyone who thinks hunting and gathering takes fewer man-hours than agriculture to feed a given number of people is insane.
Tucobenedicto (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Fact: There's a reason why there are so few hunter-gatherer societies left in the world.
Jerkface (1626 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Yeah, I stopped reading this overblown article when I discovered that the author thinks that it takes less labor to find and kill your food than it does to tend to a farm.
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
20 Sep 08 UTC
Oooh...so here Sicarius is arguing that agriculture is stupid, and we should have been off hunting or eating dead carcasses.
Sir, do you know why the whole world is based mainly on agriculture? Because it defeated the other two options!
Hunting: Often they don't find an animal. And since hunters can only search a piece of land, and they go together, their chances of meeting a wild animal has not increased, no matter if ten, a hundred, even an army of hunters go. If they're unlucky everyone is unlucky and if they're lucky everyone is.
So, your point about 75% x 10 = 5.63% is not valid.
About foraging...how often do animals die, sir? And how many wild edible plants live around their settlements?

Agriculture has been successful because it put the farmers together. Two minds are better than one, and so civilization started. Hunters and foragers failed to do that, so...they went out of fashion. Sure, there are still hunters and foragers, but that's because they don't want to farm or can't. But farmers are the majority of our civilization. That is, until the Renaissance.
FINALmasa (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
There's nothing wrong with the article. It's just that the poster misses the point. Agriculture didn't stem from people saying "hey, let's just start growing some food instead of picking it up from the ground". It happened because the people would have starved otherwise. Domestication of animals is probably the most important reason as to why a red tribe couldn't beat a white tribe no matter what kind of weapons they had. I'd suggest that everyone read Guns, Germs, and Steel. There have always been luddites, but the vast majority of them have been killed off by those who were forced under difficult circumstances to improve themselves.
Wombat (722 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
There's at least one primitive on this site...
DrOct (219 D(B))
20 Sep 08 UTC
Very interesting article, I'll have to read more and think about that. You certainly haven't convinced me yet, the articles bombastic style leads me to think that it may have left out some things, or interpreted things one wa or another (generally more scholarly articles that are written with such a "controversial" style have a definitely point of view, and I'll be interested to see if there have been any counter-point articles written), but very interesting none the less. Thank you for posting that, it's certainly made me think if nothing else.
McCain (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Hey, I was just joking, although the fact that the guy who wrote the article uses the amenities of modern life is mildly ironic.
McCain (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
besides, hunter-gatherer cultures are among the most sexist and backwards there are, due to the fact that such strict gender roles are kept.
sinned (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
well sic...much better than the last rave of yours I read...as a practising agriculturist and owner of software I tend towards a system that gives me the advantages of both...you might like to google 'permaculture'...disregarding the urban wishful thinking, permaculture offers an approach which will be useful once we shed some billion or so sapiens....and I'm sorry McCain....you havn't tripped over any amish or felaheen lately.
McCain (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
I actually live very close to the amish, who are an agricultural group, not a hunter-gatherer group.
anlari (8640 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
I suggest you take a look at the book 'A Farewell to Alms' from Gregory Clark. It's an economic history book closely related to the subject.

Primitives did have a lot more leisure time - they only "worked" for 2 hours per day. They also had living standards close to, or better than that of most countries until the Industrial Revolution. They still have better living standards than most thirld world countries in Africa. They could maintain these high living standards without sacrificing too much leisure time for work due to the high death rates (because of their foraging nature and violence) which kept their population in check and left more resources for each person.
Chrispminis (916 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Jared Diamond, of "Guns, Germs, and Steel", while admitting to a certain aspiration for primitive conditions recognizes the inevitability of agricultural societies to replace hunter-gatherers.

Agriculture was not a sudden movement, it was a gradual shift. Agriculture replaced hunter-gathering in any geographical area where it enjoyed superior food production. You can't argue with that, because it's been demonstrated by history. 200 malnourished farmers will easily overpower 20 limber hunters.

I wouldn't argue that hunter-gathering is a bad way to live, I would argue that it's replacement is inevitable in our world. Even if the world were once again reduced to the stone age, we would rise up again into civilization.
MajorTom (4417 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
It's a fact that hunter-gatherer societies exist below their environments carrying capacity and agriculture gives rise to specialization and increases in population. Today it would be impossible to feed the world population today via organic farming, can anyone fathom the implications somehow attepting to revert? (fyi the latest UN estimate for a global population climax is 10.5 billion)

I also think it's 'interesting' that the author doesn't even seem to concider industrial agriculture or concentrated animal feeding operations, even in addressing the fourth "myth" where its simply an appeal to the ignorant to exclude this information.
MajorTom (4417 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
I agree that there is a very desirable simplicity and set of values and priorities which living immersed in your environment and for subsistance promotes (Thoreau anyone) but I also believe the transition to agriculture is inevitable.
dangermouse (5551 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
"The creation of a higher population, of course, is neither good nor bad to the general population itself." Many of the extra 4+ billion people alive today because of agriculture might disagree with this statement.
Archonix (246 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
The idea that agriculture doesn't lead to a healthier lifestyle is completely false. Contemporary hunter-gather societies have large birth and death rates. Doesn't this clearly indicate that its less effective? You can plead that most contemporary diseases subsist off of agricultural man but the negative health-related aspects far outweigh the positives of hunter-gathering.

As MajorTom said though its ridiculous to even consider feeding the current population with a hunter-gatherer style system. The un-farmed land required to feed 50 people without animal domestication is massive and simply unrealistic in the post-modern world.

@MajorTom - Shit, can you find that UN estimate for me? At the current rate we'll be starving within 30-40 years.
Sicarius (673 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
of course the worlds pop cant live off a hunter gatherer lifestyle. it's just not viable. but you cant tell me that agriculture is better, overpopulation because of increased food production is going to make everyone starve.

in, as archonix says 30-40 years.
great job guys.
Chrispminis (916 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Better to have lived than to never die.

I'll take that wager Sicarius. I'll bet you 1000$ that in 30-40 years everyone does not starve... =D
Sicarius (673 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
how on earth will I collect?

besides I dont want money.
how about we bet each other a nice wholesome meal
Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
21 Sep 08 UTC
*Shudder* I managed to somehow read through that crap without throwing up in disgust. It seems agriculture isn't the only area in which the author lacks knowledge. He also seems to lack any knowledge of basic biology, as shown in the following quote from the paper, "few organisms are domesticable compared to the diversity of all wild species available for food. Moreover, those species which are domesticable are very closely related to each other. Inclement conditions for one domesticate, then, are all the more likely to affect all of the staples." He seems to think that cows and chickens are closely related genetically.
Sicarius (673 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
is that seriously the one objection you want to stand behind?
not some intelligently written critique of the essay but a comment that comes down, basically to

nuh-uh!

Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
21 Sep 08 UTC
No, that was merely an example to one of the objections I have to it. Many of the others were stated earlier by other people, but there are still a number of them remaining that haven't been discussed. Also, there is an aspect of leisure time and agriculture that hasn't been discussed. For a hunter-gather living in the northern area, winter would not be a time of leisure. They would have to go out and hunt for food regardless of whether game is abundant or not. For farmers, however, it would be the opposite. For them, winter would be a time of comparative leisure. They would have a stockpile of food to live off of during the winter, and would be free to pursue other activities.
Sicarius (673 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
before you make assumptions I did spend a winter in michigans UP with someone who neither had a garden or EVER bought food at a store
Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
21 Sep 08 UTC
I'm not talking about modern farming; I'm talking about back in middle ages and before.
Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
21 Sep 08 UTC
And back then, you COULDN'T buy food at a store if you didn't live in a town.
Sicarius (673 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
haha he's not a farmer.
anyway thats off topic

its not that much harder in winter, just colder
Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
21 Sep 08 UTC
Au contraire, animals become scarcer in winter as their food supply is much smaller. They have to work much harder to feed themselves, and as a result, have much less meat on them. If the winter is especially harsh, a large number of them die off.
Archonix (246 D)
22 Sep 08 UTC
You could by food at a store in the middle ages so to speak. You would make a day out of going to the market, it would probably be an entire day. You take whatever you intend to sell or trade and spend up to 6 hours walking to the village or wherever you intend to sell your goods. People were unable to subsist in a relatively luxurious lifestyle with only their own goods.

I'm wondering if your problem with civilization is more along the lines of urbanization Sicarius? If so see Pol Pot. If you lead an army and force the de-urbanization of entire cities just because you think one lifestyle is better I'll fucking kill you.

Just saying.
AngrySeas (346 D)
22 Sep 08 UTC
"Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond
"How the West was Won" by Elliot West

You're talking about sitting under the palm trees eating fish and pineapple... but you have to catch the fish.

Warfare is a good indicator of the difficulty of life in various societies as war is most often caused by need (Pick a war. I'll show a need.) The Polynesian peoples were extremely warlike, killing hundreds of thousands.
Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
22 Sep 08 UTC
"relatively luxurious"? What the hell was "relatively luxurious" about a peasant's life?
Imperator Dux (603 D(B))
22 Sep 08 UTC
And why would they trade for food when the only thing they really had to trade was food itself?


41 replies
Spell of Wheels (4896 D)
22 Sep 08 UTC
Rules Question Re: Movement
SETUP: 2 armies of a nations surround an empty SC (or any empty space) and one of those 2 armies is adjacent to an army of a different nation who can also enter the empty territory , such as Russia has armies in GAL and BOH-- Austria has an army in BUD. VIE is open.
The assumption is that BUD will move to VIE. Can GAL attack BUD and move BOH to VIE unimpeded? Or is a support move required? The question is asked because a 3rd nation wants BUD to be attacked in the event that BUD does not go to VIE. Thanks in advance.
4 replies
Open
Polar Bear (1038 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
The leagues - what a disappointment
If anyone wants to join the leagues I will be dropping out of Group F after this game and you can take my place. The league is a pile of shite. Everyone is trying so hard to win, it's like the thing is some kind of e-peen. Like you're going to go and tell your wife or your friends at work that you won some virtual text based competition and they're gonna go "Gee Bobby, you finally did something with your life, way to go!"

Get a life guys, it's 5 points at stake.

We're only a few turns in and not a single person has kept their word or offered any kind of help. When I offer help it's treated as some kind of trick or trap. If I ask for information I am treated like Satan. Everyone is super paranoid. All of the above I can handle; what I won't tolerate though is people being RUDE.

Here's a typical interaction:

Me: "Hey would you like support into <territory>.....?"

Other Player: "Screw you if you think you're going to trick me into leaving you a opening. Your evil plan is obvious... do you think I am stupid? You can go to hell!"

Me: "If I attack <territory> and you attack <territory> then we both help each other. Can you confirm that you will do this?"

Other player: "Just you do you think you are to make such demands! You have no right! Do you think I am stupid? I don't have to do ANYTHING you say. Go to hell!"

I come onto the internet for fun and I play Diplomacy for the social contact. Yes it's also about winning and losing but the league seems to have extinguished anything pleasant or social about the game.

I don't really have the personal time to devote to the Diplomacy anyway, but when I come to the PC and find a inbox full of hate, it makes me question my priorities.

So, if you want to spend your virtual online time with a bunch of arrogant, over-competitive, paranoid, hateful, duplicitous scumbags, join the leagues.

Or maybe it's just my league and the others are different.
55 replies
Open
Please draw this game
please draw this:
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5416

france will comply
2 replies
Open
texasdeluxe (516 D(B))
22 Sep 08 UTC
Anyone want to take over Germany before we start
Pre game still and Germany is CD! http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5760
0 replies
Open
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
DRAW REQUEST for "PRAGUE"
Hello Kestas,

please, can you draw the game http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5083.

The other players will confim shortly.
5 replies
Open
sean (3490 D(B))
21 Sep 08 UTC
League Links
Ok, so thats bad news about the PB vs maple leaf squabble but apart from that we are all happy right? i know its bad form to display private chats and all but i would like a easy link to see how we are all going in our leagues.
here is group A
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5660
8 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
22 Sep 08 UTC
speed game
anyone interested in starting a speed game, now
1 reply
Open
DukeAtreides (100 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
Opening chat records post-game
Is there a particular reason that after a game has ended the chat records aren't opened to the general public? I think it would give an interesting context to the map.
11 replies
Open
CirclMastr (227 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
Draw Request for LUELinks II
Please draw this game: http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5328

The other players will confirm, and I am England confirming for myself. Thanks.
3 replies
Open
MarekP (12864 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
Draw Request - "Blindfold"
Kestas, please, draw the game ID=5123 (Blindfold) as soon as all other players (England and Turkey) express their agreement. Thank you!
1 reply
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
Denver/Boulder
does anyone here, live... well here I guess
2 replies
Open
Ursa (1617 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
I said, don't!!
I did not start this game but we're still looking for four players. If you're up for the challenge, please join 'Don't push the red button *push*' at http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5769

Bet = 25, not too high, not too low. Everyone welcome!
0 replies
Open
Tucobenedicto (100 D)
17 Sep 08 UTC
College Process
Any seniors on phpDip? How's the process treating you guys?
87 replies
Open
bc2000 (990 D)
21 Sep 08 UTC
Improvement?
Dear Kestas
I noticed you have paginated the Games tabs, but now I have a little issue while searching for something or someone there.

Before I used the Find tool of the browser, but that works only on the current page.

I know is a minimal topic, but I had no problem with the previous 1-page tabs and just was wondering if this change really is useful and what the majority of users prefers.

Thanks.
1 reply
Open
ldrut (674 D)
20 Sep 08 UTC
No CDs Allowed - 101 Pts to join, 36 hours
So can I please have a game with fewer than 5 CD's and where everyone at least finishes 1901?
4 replies
Open
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