Indeed. Ugliness is the only crime anyone is ever punished for.

Oh please. Hog-body Alicia "Bag Face" Vikander won a prize.

Funny, I was thinking early that no one gets it worse in the entertainment industry than fat unattractive people.

Fat white people still do better than fat black people though.

Rebel Wilson, Melissa McCarthy, etc, get lead roles.

It'll probably be years before Gabourey Sidibe gets a lead film role again, and even now people probably have to Google who she is.

They're fat, but not really ugly. I'm talking about both, and in entertainment/news in general, not just movies. I mean, it can't be that the only people capable of reading teleprompters just happen to all be thin and attractive.

It's a matter of opinion though whether they're ugly or not.

There's no issue of opinion on whether Jamie Foxx has 'black' or 'white' skin.

"It's a matter of opinion though whether they're ugly or not."

No, it isn't. Beauty is a pretty exact science - to the point that computers can predict with a reasonable degree of certainty how successful young new models will be in their careers.

No, beauty is not an exact science that is universally predictable. It is subjective.

Science is changeable by definition but beauty is a very finely calculated science.

"No, beauty is not an exact science that is universally predictable. It is subjective. "

Alright then, please show me the human society where asymmetrical faces are considered attractive.

Your approach is wrong. Who wants to see ugly people?

Of course certain characteristics are more popular than others, it doesn't mean that one size fits all though.

The science of beauty and attraction is individually-programmed.

Your science-led one size fits all narrative ignores cultural influence.

Beauty, as a cultural construct, is often shared. Textbook case of cultural relativism. But our information about whether the shared cultural construct agrees with wjessop or trip is basically nil.

GOD: I think it would be refreshing to watch some fat ugly slob roll through the news in between taking gulps of their 64oz soda (diet of course) and shoveling down Cheetos.

"Your science-led one size fits all narrative ignores cultural influence. "

So show me the culture that finds asymmetrical faces attractive. Do I need to ask a third time?

trip the longer I read your text, the more I think it might be irony

"I think it would be refreshing to watch some fat ugly slob roll through the news in between taking gulps of their 64oz soda (diet of course) and shoveling down Cheetos."

Stop talking about me like that.

Hey, symmetry isn't everything. Adrien Brody is beautiful!

This attempt at mocking and denying racism in Hollywood certainly fell flat as there are plenty of ugly while male actors who have gotten awards. What's next, #OscarsSoRightHanded?

The lengths which some white people will got denying white privilege are astounding. It's like an exercise in who can make the most absurd attempt at false equivalency.

Ah yes, white privilege. That nice warm blanket you can throw over a group of people based solely on their skin color.

I guess my ancestors must have been privileged to leave Italy with little more than the shirts on their back. And it must have been a privilege for them to get picked on and attacked by the Irish immigrants who were already here. And it must have been a privilege that my grandparents all dropped out of elementary school to help support their families. And it must have been a privilege for my grandfather to have to use a false name so he would get hired for construction jobs. And it must have been a privilege for half my family tree to wiped out in Germany. And it must have been a privelege for the scorn and ridicule my parents received for marrying outside their religion. And it must have been a privilege when realators refused to show my parents houses in certain neighborhoods because she was Jewish. And it must have been a privilege for me to have to put up with years of anti-Semitism growing up. And it must have been a privilege that I had to fight off black kids in my neighborhood damn near every day who would start shit or jump me because I'm white.

Putin, you can take your white privilege and stick it right next to the pole that's shoved up your ass.

Spare me the Ellis Island fable. You got picked on when you were growing up so that somehow means that white people have it just as bad as black people in America, is that it? No structural racism here. No massive disparities in human development indicators. No massive disparities in employment. No massive disparities in treatment by the police (oh by the way there was *yet another* shooting of an unarmed black man *7 times this time) this week. No massive disparities in how job applications are treated with the same qualifications. Nope. White people have it just as bad because trip here came from an immigrant family and he allegedly was bullied or something.

Amazing. Like I said, mediocre white people will go to extreme lengths to concoct some excuse for false equivalency, to make themselves into the victims.

I wasn't talking about or dismissing racism against black people you dumb fuck, I was rejecting your silver-spoon fed apologist bullshit blanket statement about all white people.

"The lengths to which some people will go in denying evolution are astounding."

"Yeah, it must have been evolution that created the sun, evolution that created the Earth, evolution that killed the dinosaurs, evolution that explains why Patricia went out with Will instead of me. You can take your 'evolution' garbage and shove it up your ass."

"Spare me. You think those things mean evolution doesn't exist? <cites various examples--evolution producing nylon-eating bacteria, evolution of the horse, the fossil record> It's amazing how some idiots will concoct ridiculous alternative explanations to make themselves believe evolution didn't create the universe."

^How this debate sounds to me

I'd favor nobody ever using the term "privilege" ever again if it meant they'd actually describe the disparate phenomena they're trying to capture with that term.

"I'd favor nobody ever using the term "privilege" ever again if it meant they'd actually describe the disparate phenomena they're trying to capture with that term."

Yes, it's clear trip doesn't have a clue as to what privilege actually means.

Some people can't see the world passed their own self-absorbed face. Everything is about them.

Each of you has maybe half a clue, and they're different halves, and you're each accusing the other of being a total idiot for not being as enlightened as you with your half-a-clue. It'd be funny if it wasn't irritating.

Leth, if it's so irritating why are you spending more of your time here commenting?

Your unwillingness to enlighten with your great wisdom is just as irritating. Oh well, another one of those 'above the fray' types who knows everything but says nothing.

I'm commenting in the faint hope of changing the dynamic. So far it's shifted towards irritation with me. Frankly, that's progress.

Now. Privilege, at this point, is basically an attempt to reconstruct one's social class from the bottom up through identity politics. The stuff Putin cited is a pretty decent explanation of the general white-black disparity in privilege in America, which is why I analogized it to a decent explanation of some evidence for evolution. But that doesn't make the stuff trip talked about an "excuse for false equivalency" by "mediocre white people". White people in the US have the general privilege of whiteness, but that doesn't make them a privileged monolith; there's a lot of shit affecting privilege besides whiteness, and the poor white rural religious-minority immigrant kid who grows up a minority in his own crime-infested neighborhood (I'm not trying to describe anyone in particular here, just an abstract hypothetical) has pretty low privilege overall. (This is usually where someone speaking the language of privilege gets into 'intersectionality'--and goes off the rails, like as not. But it is useful to note that privilege isn't well-ordered, such that you can clearly say whether any one person has 'more' or 'less' privilege than another.)

trip can think what he likes of the privilege model--I have my own reservations about it--but many of the differences it describes are real. And Putin, who buys into the privilege model, really shouldn't be offhandedly dismissive of trip's own background just to make a point about one particularly visible dimension of the privilege model.

Said enough for you?

Sure, except the part where you buy into nonsense that even mentioning privilege implies that white people are a monolith whose every experience is the same. I never said this nor does white privilege imply it. But nor does such individual experience negate it, and that is why trip was trying to do by bring it up, otherwise he wouldn't have said it.

Sorry if I'm not impressed.

"Like I said, mediocre white people will go to extreme lengths to concoct some excuse for false equivalency, to make themselves into the victims."

This is where you directly made white people into a monolith, Putin. Otherwise *you* wouldn't have said it. Sorry if I'm not impressed that you're much better at finding trip's faults than your own. (Thanks for pointing out that I was doing the 'insubstantial know-it-all' act, though, that's a fault of my own.)

I have no doubt that privilege exists Leth. I just don't believe: racism against black people by some white people=every white person has lived a privileged existence. I also disagree with how it's somehow turned into if a white person doesn't admit that they specifically owe their lot in life to privilege, they're racist. <- I'm not accusing you of that belief.

*that is what trip was trying to do by bring it up

Conversation
A: Let's all mock the idea that black people are excluded from recognition from the Oscars by comparing structural racism to the lack of recognition afforded to ugly people.
B: This attempt to deny white privilege falls flat.
C: Screw the idea of white privilege I was bullied by black people and came from an immigrant background
D: This doesn't negate structural racism and white privilege.
E: I wasn't denying structural racism I was claiming not all white people's experiences are the same.

Don't tell me trip wasn't trying to deny the existence of white privilege and structural racism by appealing to his personal story.

"I just don't believe: racism against black people by some white people=every white person has lived a privileged existence. "

You still are misconstruing what is meant by white privilege. But you won't stop so why bother continuing this conversation with you.

I think you have an overactive imagination, Putin.

"This is where you directly made white people into a monolith, Putin. Otherwise *you* wouldn't have said it. "

Nice pivot but that's not what trip was objecting to and that's not why you intervened in this conversation to tell us about how we don't know what we're talking about. That was me venting my frustration at white people who think that because they didn't come from a well-off background or maybe are part of an ethnic group that at one point in history were oppressed, that means white privilege doesn't exist. They go to extreme lengths to make equivalencies that do not exist.

"I think you have an overactive imagination, Putin."

I think you lack the capacity for considering any experience but your own.

You really like arguments where the other person has to defend not being something don't you? That's a convenient way of working things.

* framing arguments

No, actually I don't. We're like ships passing in the night. We're not having the same conversation. I don't know if it's deliberate on your part, but it sure is annoying to deal with.

Well, there are points that you're trying to make, such as my not understanding the definition of privilege when I'm using the same one as you, that are confusing to me as well.

You're not using the same one though. I'm referring to privilege as a systemic condition which is why I objected to you and others mocking it with this thread, you think it means I think every single white person is "privileged" in the economic sense. We're not talking about the same things.

Wow, were really crossed up then, because I was actually using the same definition that you were.

@trip: "I have no doubt that privilege exists Leth. I just don't believe: racism against black people by some white people=every white person has lived a privileged existence."

I basically agree with that. First, because having privilege along one dimension does not make someone privileged overall. Second, because I think there's a lot about the white-black disparity in particular that is more specifically attributable to oppression of blacks than to privilege of whites. And third, because identity effects can be highly local, as your example (being picked on as the white kid in your neighborhood) illustrates.

If we move away from talking about 'all' people within a category, I think you would agree that there are some *fairly broad* social effects that benefit *most* white people--this is my understanding of what you mean when you say "privilege exists," anyway. If I'm mistaken, please correct me.

@Putin: "Nice pivot but that's not what trip was objecting to and that's not why you intervened in this conversation to tell us about how we don't know what we're talking about."

On the contrary, that was exactly the line that made me decide to comment instead of simply watching. I wasn't sure how to respond to trip's comment; your response was informative as both a positive *and* negative example.

"Wow, were really crossed up then, because I was actually using the same definition that you were."

Then I don't know what this debate is even about.

"
On the contrary, that was exactly the line that made me decide to comment instead of simply watching."

That wasn't even a comment on white privilege so again color me perplexed.