Draug: not minding a draw is one thing. Calling for a 5 way draw is another thing entirely. Being completely and totally unwilling to fight for a lower-number draw is poor play IMHO. You don't have to solo or die trying, but saying a 5 way and a 3 way draw means exactly the same thing so you won't try to act for one instead of another ruins the spirit of th game I think.

Your statements to me paraphrased were, "I don't care about points, I don't care about ranking, if I can't solo, I don't care how many people are in the draw and I can't solo so I'm drawing." Maybe to some people that is just another style of play, but I think it effectively ruins the spirit of the game in which people either play to win (and risk a survive instead of a draw by being risky) /or/ play conservatively but attempt to draw with a small number.

Erist, OK, I get that. I think that you and I sort of passed each other in the night, goalwise. There was a point in the game that I was 99% certain I was out of it (and I was also mad at Germany, who kept leaving it open for the stab while attacking me). So, I was fine with you getting a solo, but by the time you seemed like you really wanted to work together, the moment was past.

The problem was two-fold. First, the game was PPSC. I did not notice that until after we had started. My bad. The second was that erist was obviously winning and then he started just offering everything and anything to the three of us to help him win. Once we started comparing notes, it was apparent that he was lying to everyone and we decided to stop him in his tracks. Lying is cool in Dip, but lying to everyone is very dangerous. Once you get caught, you are screwed. And you, sir, were screwed once we all found out. And getting agressive in your messages didn't help either. You just shot yourself in the foot.

ck: true that, I thought that you were out of it as well. Turkey was talking a good game about wanting to attack you, you were on your last legs, and I thought with a bit of a push it would end up with a E/T/A 3 way. Austria was saying he wanted a 5 way and wouldn't attack you no matter what, but I kinda figured that was bullshit, until it became clear that it wasn't :P In retrospect, Germany leaving himself so wide open was even bad for me. I grew quick enough that no one would even consider working with me anymore, especially when they had the other dominant power in the game saying he wanted to draw with 5.

I admit to shifting my 3 way strategy from nice talk to gunboat diplomacy/belligerent demands, but I really thought either you or Turkey were on the verge of deciding to fight the other.

jimgov: I agree with you, but I thought I was quite open that I was offering everyone the opportunity to be part of a 3 way and the first two that took it would have my support. I was offering anything to everyone, but I was pretty clear that was what I was doing.

Also the 5 way draw demand and the continual threat that he would call the mods to enforce a stalemate line rather than trying to actually play the game so effectively tilted me every single time I logged on to that particular game, that I was never in a good mood while playing it.

but mostly a strategic miscalculation. I thought if I made it clear I was willing to work with anyone, while also making it aggressively clear I did not consider a 4 way a valid way to end the game, it would cause either your or Russia to convince Aus to go ahead and go for the 3 way with my help. It just hardened your resolve to 4 way. Next time I'll try sugar instead of whine.

Also, erist, what jimgov says was a big part of it, but something else: I don't know how much news you got out of this or how much you paid attention to faraway things, but I remember this looking at the board: the whole southeast was really, really weird. Italy went on this huge diplomatic push to get everyone to attack Turkey in order to fight the growing E/G, and then used that to stab Austria, and then Italy stabbed me after I stabbed Austria (as I was stabbing Austria, in fact), and I stabbed Turkey and then Austria for like a year or even a season each and then worked things out, it was gross. I think part of it was that once we all had some kind of stable alliance, after such chaos, that nobody wanted to risk upsetting the balance again.

I 100% understand that neither you or Turkey had much reason to push for a 3 way, as there was probably always a decent chance that that 3 way would occur without you. Which is why I was trying so hard to get on of you excited that I would work with you and a 3 way was possible.

I think you and Turkey deciding to stick together and say look, we're too worried about dying if we attack each other, either at your hands or at Austria's was fine play. My assertions to the contrary in game were just bluster to try to get one of you to agree with me.

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On the other hand, no one will ever convince me that throwing up a 5 way draw vote in like 1906 with 10 supply centers is good diplo play.

Erist - I honestly don't give a fucking shit what your fucking opinion of my play is. I used the 5 way claim to great effect. It got two smaller nations on my side and solidified them against you. You don't like, tough shit and go fuck off. It worked and that is proof it was *good* diplomacy versus your shit displomacy.

Everyone sounds so grumpy! If I remember correctly, the original purpose of the game was to avoid a yet another CDfest, and at least everyone can be happy we managed that.

I was fine until thos cocksucker claims I am a bad diplomat when my plans worked and hsi went to shit. The proof is in the pudding amd my pudding tasted pretty fucking good where as his turned out looking amd tasting.like dog shit.

This not thos

You're right Draugnar, I'm impressed that you can take a commanding second place lead in the mid-game all the way into an attempted 5 way draw. I know it's difficult to end up part of such a small draw when one has 3-4 more supply centers and decent position on their neighbors.

Try reviewing the game again and see how I started in rough shape. I had no intention of destroyignt he trust of those two so that they would attack me and give you the win, which is what they vowed to do.

@erist, what has been bugging me is the idea of reducing the draw without intention of winning. If four countries band together to stop the fifth country from soloing, would you as one of those four try and eliminate one or two of them just to get a better draw?

If so, then you encourage small countries to throw the game because they can't trust that they won't be eliminated to "improve" the draw.

IMHO, that was a pretty reasonable 4WD. I'm a proponent that there is a time and place to play for the smaller draw and I'm an even bigger proponent of disagreeing with draug but I can't see how you'd expect it to be reduced safely by any of the other 3 powers.

Take a look at the board. I was Turkey with fleets strung out across the med to stop an English advancement. "Why don't you turn around and attack Russia." And give you the solo? Um...no.

And I was stuck with the "attack Russia or Turkey or I refuse to draw" threat. And do what? Get crushed by the two of them for being a total dick? No thanks, I'll leave being a fucktard to erist.

Note I am not talking about the 4 way end, it could have gone 3 way if Draug also wanted it to go 3 way, without any chance of a solo, but that is irrelevant. As said, I think neither of the two littletons had any reason to go along with a 3 way push since thy had a 50/50 shot of being the one eliminated, so a 4 way is fine if th number 2 power wants it.

I am talking about Draugnar's initial vote for a 5 way draw when he was far and away the second most powerful person on the board and repeated statements that he would be getting the mods to draw the game after a stalemate line was set even though we were years away from any sort of viable stalemate and all of his allies were at least kicking around the idea in chat of stabbing him.

I have to agree with Draunar. I think this idea of reducing the draw is completelly out of the game spirit. In the original game you either win, lose or draw.
Just here because of points and GR that are things completelly outside the game people want to reduce the draw.

If I can´t win anymore (either I am too small or one power have a solid stalemate line) I set my target to a draw and the size isn´t important.

RD, I think you're making some assumptions about the original rules. It states winning conditions and it states drawing conditions. How you deal with those is up to interpretation.

I got my opinion from playing several PBEM games with the same people. If I drew and another player lost, it seemed like a quasi victory for me. Therefore, the fewer people in my draw, the better my result.

I don't think either stance can be gleemed from the original rules alone which is why I try to be upfront about my intentions in game.

Well, if completely honest, the big difference between the boardgame and even email games is generally the boardgame is played amongst friends and when everyone notices the potential solo and gangs up to stop it, the game usually just ends by agreement and no one cares. PBEM and the Judges don't have that need to preserve friendships by saying "yes! we stopped Frank!" and, like here, are therefore more competitive.

Yonni, I understand your point and have to agree with you that this is an interpretation issue. And it´s a diferent thing to play for a 3-way for example when it´s clear you can´t win. I was talking about the situation that started the post: after you join some players to stop a solo, and succeed, I don´t really think it´s a "quasi victory" to cut one of the other players on the line from the draw, even if you can do it safely. But this is my humble opinion.

Also, tournaments are a completelly diferent situation as points are given on basis of the size of the draw.

For me it's really a case by case scenario. If I can safely and quickly cut someone out of the draw who hasn't really been putting my effort in and sort of lucked into the draw then, for sure, they're toast. If its someone who I've been chatting to all game then I have no issue with keeping them in the draw.

I know it's whimsical and without much reason but its how I find the game most fun so it's how I tend to play.