What does the term "Israel" most commonly refer to in the bible? The physical land? Jacob? The people who used to live there in biblical times? The people who live there now or will make aliyah? It sounds like this passage is meant to apply to past and present Israelis as most biblical passages are intended to be timeless. I know "Israel" can mean all of these, but I'd like to hear from a bible expert on it. I feel many disagree on this subject among those that actually care.

I would like Mujus to keep his word and keep his Bible postings to one thread before yet another flame war drives noobs away.

Oh I get why this deserves another thread!

Draugnar, you may or may not remember that I said I would occasionally post when there is a special reason. In this case it was the death of the mother of one of our Webdiplomacy players, and this psalm offers hope even in the depths of despair.

Piss on israel and that whole regionally

@Draugnar: Mujus isn't that bad, for the most part he is keeping it to one thread and I am glad about how reasonable he is being.

None of us are being required to start a daily political news reading thread. Where we can only post all our political debates and news about what democrats/republicans are doing to one thread.

and as Santa pointed out, Mujus believed this line deserved its own thread and so he was allowed to do it.

Mujus - So why didn't you mention that and why didn't you post it a couple weeks ago when she passed? Never mind, I'm just muting the thread.

@y2kjbk: Generally, in the Old Testament, when someone is referring to Israel they are referring to the ethnic group of people who are descended from Jacob, essentially to the Jewish nation. It is not a geographical term, but primarily an ethnic one based on ancestry from the line of Jacob. Of course, the New Testament drastically changes the way that Christians read the Old Testament, as most Christians who are not Jews view themselves as being ingrafted into the true community of God by the reconciling death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which was for both the Jewish people and all other people.

Draugnar's muted this, but to reply--I posted another reading at that time but was thinking of CM again when I posted this one as well. Y2k, Israel is first and foremost the nation of Israel, but it's also used to refer to God's people--all those who praise God and put their trust in Him. And no matter who you were born as, you have the decision to trust God or to ignore him, and that will eventually determine whether you spend eternity with God or not.

Israel is עם ישראל, that is the nation of Israel - the Jews.

What the fuck is your problem Mutejus. Keep your filth in your little quarantined thread so I can ignore it properly. I know nobody reads it but that's no excuse to get out of your box. Leave your disgusting proselytizing with the rest of the bible thumpers.

I hope you look at this just long enough so one of your darlings small children reads this. Hey, little Timmy, did you know daddy likes to put his thing into mommy's rear? Stone cold fact, and that's why you're an AIDS baby.

I like this chapter a lot. I'll write about it a bit, so whoever isn't interested in learning the psalms please - just move on :-)

First of all, it is quite difficult to study the deeper meaning of the psalms without knowing its background. According to the tradition the entire psalms were written down by King David, and are all filled with hints from God himself. Jews and Christians alike studied the psalms during the ages and today they are still considered a major element in both religions.

To those who can read Hebrew I'm posting here the chapter in it's original language. The original text is important especially because the translation to English has a great affect on the meaning of the text as a whole. I am also adding my personal (literal, word by word as much as I could while preserving the meaning) translation to English.

א שִׁיר הַמַּעֲלוֹת:
מִמַּעֲמַקִּים קְרָאתִיךָ יְהוָה.
ב אֲדֹנָי, שִׁמְעָה בְקוֹלִי:
תִּהְיֶינָה אָזְנֶיךָ, קַשֻּׁבוֹת-- לְקוֹל, תַּחֲנוּנָי.

a. Song of ascension.
From depths I called you, God.
b. God, hear my voice, may your ears be listening - to the voice of me begging.

ג אִם-עֲוֹoנוֹת תִּשְׁמָר-יָהּ-- אֲדֹנָי, מִי יַעֲמֹד.
ד כִּי-עִמְּךָ הַסְּלִיחָה-- לְמַעַן, תִּוָּרֵא.

c. If you will keep (our) sins God, who could stand (before you).
d. Indeed you have the forgiveness so that you will be feared.

ה קִוִּיתִי יְהוָה, קִוְּתָה נַפְשִׁי; וְלִדְבָרוֹ הוֹחָלְתִּי.
ו נַפְשִׁי לַאדֹנָי-- מִשֹּׁמְרִים לַבֹּקֶר, שֹׁמְרִים לַבֹּקֶר.

e. I hope, God, my soul longs and to his (God's) words I am expecting.
f. my soul longs to God, as sentries long for dawn, we act as sentries and long for dawn.

ז יַחֵל יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֶל-יְהוָה: כִּי-עִם-יְהוָה הַחֶסֶד; וְהַרְבֵּה עִמּוֹ פְדוּת.
ח וְהוּא, יִפְדֶּה אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל-- מִכֹּל, עֲוֹ נֹתָיו.

g. Israel, hope for God, because he is benevolent and can redeem in many ways.
h. And he will redeem Israel from all their sins.

This chapter is divided to four parts, each describes a major idea.

1. Before we begin, the word "Ascension" is linked to Jerusalem and specifically the temple. The first part asks god to hear ones prayer from the depths. The word מעמקים (depths) is not frequent in the Torah and can only be found in three other places: Isaiah 51, Ezekiel 27 and Psalms 69. In Isaiah and Ezekiel the word means literally "the depths of sea" while in psalms 69 the meaning is "save me God because the water line had reached my soul... ...save me from my enemies and from the depths of the sea", very much like a distress call from one who is about to disappear underwater and tries to grasp one last bit of air.
It is likely to consider that in our psalm the "depths" also mean a low position of the soul, one so bad that the person can't endure his position no more and he cries in despair.
What could lead to such desperation? Perhaps we could learn about it from the next part.
2. The word תשמור could mean both to remember and to keep. In our situation the second word is more likely because God obviously can't "forget" in terms we are used to but he can erase those sins and allow each and every one of us to start anew.
"Who could stand". The word "stand" has two meanings. One can say that "Who could stand" means that no one can exist before God without his forgiveness but another interpretation is that one can't stand because he can no longer feel the ground beneath him. It can be connected directly to the previous part, where the writer hinted that he felt like he was drowning.
Those "depths" are a metaphor to one's sins and low condition "who could stand before you", an understanding that while we are nothing but a small and insignificant part of the creation which is in turn part of God our soul still has a direct contact with him and we lung to get closer to him.
The next sentence however is a bit difficult to understand: "Indeed you have the forgiveness so that you will be feared." If people are forgiven they should fear the one who forgave them? Because He has an ability to forgive we should fear him?
My understanding of these words is that a person who is used to be forgiven all the time will get light-headed and won't be careful about his actions. He knows after all that he will be forgiven no matter what. In the Babylonian Talmud, Masechet Yoma it is written: "The one who says I'll sin and then repent, sin and then repent once again, - his repent will not be accepted."
But when a man repents not only by words but by actions because he realizes his position in this universe - then he "fears God" (honestly, I don't think that the word "fear" is a good translation of the word ירא. In Hebrew the words ירא שמיים mean exactly the "fear of God" but in a positive - loving way. Not like the word "fear" in English which is often related to mundane life and usually has a negative meaning.)

I can continue writing about the psalms but it gets really late here in Jerusalem. If you wish I could continue tomorrow.
Also, please forgive my poor English grammar. English is only my fourth language...

Very interesting info, 'liano, thanks! But the Psalms had other authors as well, including one by Moses, some by the sons of Asaph, and of course David. As you read through them they are often labeled as such "Here ends the psalms of David" for example. So the meaning of Israel, a man's name originally--What are the root words, the constituent parts of this word, and what is the literal meaning? Same or Judah.

Same for Judah, I mean.

Hello there Mujus and thank you for your reply.
As you are likely to know the chapters in the psalms all begin with a reference such as מזמור לדוד - a song to David (or other names, such as Moses, sons of Korah, Asaf, Yedutun, Solomon and Eitan ha ezrahi). The Hebrew letter "la-med" or "L" - ל usually means "to". For example, I am going to study. Many scholars debated what is the correct relevance of this "to" to the names of the people whose names are mentioned. In the Babylonian Talmud masechet Baba Batra it is stated that King David wrote the entire psalms but some of the chapters were transferred to him from Moses, Melechizedek and eight other authors. That could explain why one Chapter ends with the phrase "here ends the psalms of David" and the next chapters still include King David's name. If you wish we can go deeper into this issue.
Regarding the name Israel, it is combined of two words: Yashar-El. ישר-אל which means "straight (honest) before God". The name was given as a personal name to Jacob and later his sons and the entire nation was named "sons of Israel".
Jehuda was the name of one Jacob's sons, later a clan and even later a kingdom that was based on this clan.

Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the Septuagint (Greek text) is older than the Masoretic (Hebrew) text.

'Liano, of course we need to take into account that the ancient Book of Psalms is itself a compilation of five separate books of psalms. Dubmy, that's an interesting assertion. However, regardless of the ages of the surviving manuscripts, the Psalms were definitely written in Hebrew--the Greek Septuagint was a translation.

And what does Judah mean? And could Israel be translated "with right standing before God"?

Hello there Mujus and thank you for your reply.
As you are likely to know the chapters in the psalms all begin with a reference such as מזמור לדוד - a song to David (or other names, such as Moses, sons of Korah, Asaf, Yedutun, Solomon and Eitan ha ezrahi). The Hebrew letter "la-med" or "L" - ל usually means "to". For example, I am going to study. Many scholars debated what is the correct relevance of this "to" to the names of the people whose names are mentioned. In the Babylonian Talmud masechet Baba Batra it is stated that King David wrote the entire psalms but some of the chapters were transferred to him from Moses, Melechizedek and eight other authors. That could explain why one Chapter ends with the phrase "here ends the psalms of David" and the next chapters still include King David's name. If you wish we can go deeper into this issue.
Regarding the name Israel, it is combined of two words: Yashar-El. ישר-אל which means "straight (honest) before God". The name was given as a personal name to Jacob and later his sons and the entire nation was named "sons of Israel".
Jehuda was the name of one Jacob's sons, later a clan and even later a kingdom that was based on this clan.

No. Aureliano slipped up a little. It comes from the phrase for fighting with god, as seen:
לא יעקב ייאמר עוד שמך כי אם ישראל כי שרית עם אלוהים
Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but rather Israel, for you hath fought (sarita) with God*.
* Some put "an angel" here.