"you should treat a person the way that person wants to be treated. If you feel to be a woman,"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJL4UGSbeFg

You're right, it really isn't. It's enough for people to get assaulted, to get disowned, to kill themselves.
You would think so, wouldn't you? But not everyone works that way, unfortunately. Did you ever hear about the McDonalds attack last year, where a couple of teenage girls attacked a transwoman, even as she was going into seizures from the beating? http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2011/09/13/woman-sentenced-to-5-years-in-rosedale-transgender-attack/
If things were that simple, the world would be a much better place. People who are intersex may not feel like they fit into either gender, and they are not necessarily hermaphrodites. And what if someone had their gender listed as X on their passport? It's a thing in Australia, for people who do not identify as male or female. What bathroom do they use?
Back to the law. It wasn't until 2003 that anti-sodomy laws were struck down in the US. And really, anyone who called someone out on that law would not do it because they wanted people to follow the law. This is the same.

Yeah it goes without saying that I condemn violence against transsexuals and other people who are "different."
"And what if someone had their gender listed as X on their passport? It's a thing in Australia, for people who do not identify as male or female. What bathroom do they use?"
I guess they could use both bathrooms.

My point is mainly this: that the person in this blog, or people in a similar situation, shouldn't be able to do what they do *just because they hold themselves to be transgender*. *That* I believe is not enough. I shouldn't be able to walk into a women's locker room claiming I'm transgender. I *should* be able to do that if I have a legal document *confirming* I'm one. That's basically it.

"Back to the law. It wasn't until 2003 that anti-sodomy laws were struck down in the US. And really, anyone who called someone out on that law would not do it because they wanted people to follow the law. This is the same."
-Could you elaborate? I find these sentences confusing.

Sure, not everyone gets to the point of physical violence, but if you're just trying to use the bathroom, you don't want some crazy person yelling at you.
I'm saying bathrooms, you're saying locker rooms. I think someone who is transgender should be able to use a bathroom without having to carry around ID. If they don't have it, or haven't had it changed yet, they're condemned to the other restroom? As for locker rooms, that is a different story.
Well, if you turned a person in for practicing sodomy, I doubt it would be out of any sense of justice. You would do it because you dislike the person, or dislike the idea of someone being gay.

I also believe it is categorically wrong to yell at people.
I'm really sorry re: bathroom/locker room, but for the sake of argument I'll stick to the locker room, so we don't get lost in endless details when really this issue merits a broader discussion.
And about sodomy laws, that sounds like a US thing, I don't think I can help you there either.

Simple solution to all the problems... Eliminate male and female bathrooms and changing room and locker rooms and even showers. Make all bath rooms be like ladies rooms now, with private locking stalls. Locker rooms can have changing stalls with locking doors where a person who is changing can step in. And the showers can provide privacy as well. Make the general rule that you must wear at least a towel to and from the shower and encourage bringing under garments along cause, lets face it, you see more in most two piece swimsuits than womens under garments and most men don't have the hangup of being seen in their boxers or briefs. So the offending genitalia will be out of site and people can change with a level of feeling safe and secure. And the bonus is the new unisex rooms wouldn't have to be as big as the combined current two rooms.

@Lucid - Only a few states even have sodomy laws left on the books and those that do don't generally prosecute it unless the act is in public where vaginal intercourse is also prohibited. So let's try to focus on the discussion and not derail the thread into something else, shall we?

@ ghug

"I don't like that solution because some people will be forced to go into the "dicks" room when they feel more comfortable in the "no dicks" room."

Yeah, I hate to rehash what others have said already, but doesn't accommodating TG's comfort at the expense of the discomfort of the majority of women around them (I expect that's the case, maybe they don't care) seem a bit much? I'm not saying the comfort of the majority is the only thing to be considered, but I don't think we can dismiss it outright, either.


"It also does nothing to alleviate the issue that all of you claim to have a problem with: even if you don't actually put a picture of a penis on the door, children are still going to be exposed to the idea of it every time they go to the bathroom."

That is a GOOD thing. If children were exposed to the idea and told it was not something freaky or to be scared of then maybe this won't be an issue in the future. Remember, seeing a cock is what everybody is so worked up about. Americans are overly repressed in their sexuality anyways, and I'll admit my arguments do stem from the assumption that the majority of natural born women are not comfortable with the idea.


"I think the best option is to have people use the bathroom/locker room that is right for them, and have private stalls in all bathrooms/locker rooms to prevent any awkwardness."

That's not really an option, in this scenario though. This woman chose to use the sauna and let her rod dangle. Private stalls won't fix this. Come to think of it though, her situation probably wouldn't be very comfortable in the men's sauna either, especially if she has breasts, which may be what Putin was hamfistedly alluding to.

Ugh, I just don't know. I asked my friend at work her opinion and she said it was a pretty tough question for her too. *shrug*

"I don't think we can dismiss it outright, either"

I think we can in the case of allowing a TG person to use the change room that best matches their gender. In any other case of segregation, we'd dismiss it. Concepts like intersex, transgender, etc. are new to many people and bound to make them uncomfortable. Just because old preconcieved notions of the world are hard to shake doesn't mean we can't push for new more progressive laws.

The transgered community is real and sizable. To make them use the wrong changeroom is cruel and, imho, quite bigotted. If people are not comfortable with seeing genitalia, then they shouldn't go into a public sauna.

" If people are not comfortable with seeing genitalia, then they shouldn't go into a public sauna. "

While I agree in principle, the idea of seeing the opposite set of genitalia in the sauna is a different bird than a set of genitalia matching one's own. PErsonally, I don't care much one way or the other (unless you try parading around my house with your johnson hanging out). But some people are more comfortable with seeing genitalia that matches their own in that environment than genitalia that doesn't.

I learned long ago that, right or worng, other's perceptions *are* reality. As a consultant, if the client has a perception that I'm not working hard enough, I need to handle and change it or the reality is I won't be working for them any more even if I was working on framework/infrastructure code that is needed to make the bells and whistles of the UI work. The same applies here. If others perceive you as a man, even though you self identify as a woman, then you need to work to find a middle ground and an understanding. Not get pissy, but work together to find that happy middle ground.

One good way? Get to know the ladies around your gym before you start hanging out in the locker room sauna. Don't hide who you are. Instead, get them comfortable with you. Then the first time they see your junk, they might be a little shocked, but they were expecting you to have it and are quicker to accept that you aren't a threat and can be "one of the girls" (sorry Putin, but the ladies around here always talk about "girls night out" and "one of the girls").

In fact, maybe a TG should use the matching geintals room while hanging with the ladies for a few months. Playing tennis or running on the track or taking a pilates class. Then when the TG is comfortable with them and they with her, she brings up how uncomfortable she is having to use the mens locker room and gets their backing to go to the gyms management and ask permission to use the ladies room.

This won't work for bathrooms, but public bathrooms usually have stalls anyhow and the ladies bathrooms always have stalls, so it is actually less of an issue there.

I wonder if in some years people will look bck on this conversation the way we would look back at a conversation about the racial de-segregation of schools/restrooms etc

"The same applies here. If others perceive you as a man, even though you self identify as a woman, then you need to work to find a middle ground and an understanding. Not get pissy, but work together to find that happy middle ground."

No, too bad for you. Otherwise why can't I perceive you as whatever I want and then should you have to meet that perception?

@largeham - Try reading again. And this time try reading *all* of it. It was about getting to know each other and gaining mutual respect so the TG would be able to freely be hersxelf around the ladies in the sauna. Do you not understand how society works and what civilized people do? Or are you a Putinesque barbarian who says "me, me, me" all the time and doesn't give a fuck what other people feel?

@Yonni that's the thing that I just can't get over. Why do you insist that it must be gender identification that dictates which restroom to use? That doesn't seem at all to me to be the automatic or obvious answer at all.

@sic I actually hated reading that, because its the same argument I pose to people opposed to gay marriage. I think I can definitely say that this will NOT be an issue 100 years from now. Nobody will care about who's privates they see.

I don't think the root of this argument, however, is necessarily nested in bigotry or transphobia. Restrooms are already segregated, and most of us aren't seriously proposing an entire desegregation. We're just trying to (re)define the criteria of segregation. Normally I'd say fuck it lets move the slider forward, but this is the first time I'm actually able to see this kind of issue from a more conservative view. I'd really like to hear survey results on:

A) cisgendered women's comfort with dicks in the ladies room.
B) pre-op MTF women's comfort with changing in the men's room.

** by restroom i meant locker room.

Is the belief that women shouldn't have to be accidentally exposed to male genitalia, even in passing, when they don't want to, really such an old fashioned idea?

Does giving value to that belief make me a bigot? Putin clearly thinks so. I'm not so sure.

I can speak to B as a great many of mtf trans people have expressed to me their extreme discomfort at having to use the mens room.

I'm not really surprised.

Why is that discomfort supposed to weigh more heavily than the cisgendered female majority?

Assuming, that is, that they are equally uncomfortable on an individual basis.

Keep in mind the source for this story. I doubt the woman in question sprawled out at all.

Yeah, that was hyperbole, but we can agree that if she did choose to use the sauna (well within her right) then odds are quite good somebody saw something.

@Draugnar, I loled at Putinesque barbarian. Why should trans people have to wait for cisgendered people to 'accept' them in their own time?

Putinesq barbarians get a +3 bonus to attack rolls made in bad terrain.

@largeham

because it seems the only thing both sides have to lose is discomfort?

because why is the discomfort of the minority supposed to weigh more heavily than the cisgendered female majority?

Because is the belief that women shouldn't have to be accidentally exposed to male genitalia, even in passing, when they don't want to, really an inappropriate idea that should be outweighed by the desires of the minority?

You guys really need to answer these questions, I think.

The only way you can make that argument is if you continue to ignore violence against trans people in lockerrooms.

@yj, in reply to your comment to me - the reason why they have to go to the change room of their gender is because its part of the fabric of belonging to that gender. Asking a woman (regardless of their bits) to go to a men's change room undermines their right to self identity. I definitely understand your point. That perhaps change rooms should be divided by sexual organ rather than gender but going to *your* change room carries a lot f weight culturally and I think the ability to do so should be afforded to transgendered people.

"The only way you can make that argument is if you continue to ignore violence against trans people in lockerrooms."

And I'll repeat again the only way you can make that claim is if you demonstrate it actually happens. Restrooms in Texas? I'll buy that argument prima facie. Locker rooms? You better show me something.

@yonni. Good point and I agree with that.