I'll write more later, but I'll just throw out a couple thoughts.

This is only about the 3rd game I've played on here, so there are still things about the interface I'm getting used to. One of which is that I didn't realize the "draw" flag would stick around past the deadline. Probably didn't matter this game as I probably would have taken the draw this year anyway. Good thing to remember for later though.

I think I'm actually pretty lucky to have survived the game. I was hoping that Austria would hold off on stabbing me until I'd actually gotten a foothold in Italy. When that didn't happen, I think my chance for a solo probably evaporated, as there wasn't much of a path past 17.

If Germany goes after France at that point instead of going out of his way to help me out, I'm done for. In fact if I don't hold Warsaw the year Peter stabbed me, I'll be down to 3 within a year. In that sense I think he was right to stab me, although I'm not sure there wouldn't have been an even better chance to stab me later.

But it's hard to say. I was going to stab him as soon as I was in to Italy, so that might have been the best time.

Nobody? Fair enough.

Sorry for the delay, life's kicking my butt right now, but, this weekend, for sure...

This finished? I'll try to get something up soon.

I guess I can try to get this rolling again. I got lucky and landed France. I don't remember why I was swayed to England at first, but that's the way it happened (maybe Germany didn't get into the communication until later?). I wish I could look back at the messages but it appears they only go so far back.

The game for me seemed to be one long series of side-switching and restraint. I never was able to dive in and kill Italy, for example because I didn't want England to jump down my back. E, G and F we all cycled through Belgium and eventually A/T started getting pretty big and to me everything seemed to be just holding on by a shoestring. Germany was scared of Austria, and we were both scared of England, who just needed to wait until A/T started dining on our Southern regions at which point he could just grab some of our centers and probably hold on for the draw. So, once Austria was really getting close to feeding on Germany, and Russia was down for the count, I thought I'd better commit to something. That's when I worked out a double-stab to try to take out England before he could attack me. It worked pretty well, but then Austria backs off of Germany and suddenly Germany has tremendous position. I'm not sure why he didn't go for my throat at that point (the fleet build that never happened that flipped out Austria), but as it turned out, I survived!

Things got a little tense as things were winding down as Germany seemed to be maneuvering to do something bad to me, which I couldn't quite grasp because something of that sort would surely lead to a Turkish solo ( I would've done my best to see that happen). Maybe he was just probing to see how gullible I could be?

At any rate, it seemed an interesting but rather tense game. Nothing much would happen and then it all exploded at once. It is funny to look back at the moves and note how utterly standard ALL the openings are. A very cautious group.

Chuck

This is going to be shorter than it should be because I forget my thoughts about a game when I'm eliminated early like I was, but I'll share anyway.

1901:
There was a good amount of press before the first moves, I had friendly relations with everyone and no commitments, things looked good. Spring moves went as planned all around, I kept good relations with everyone and was looking forward to a likely two-build 1901. Then Germany bounced me, England forewent the build in Norway to position himself aggressively against me (though he claimed it was a misorder, I think things might have worked out very differently for the two of us had we not had that early tension, so I'd be very interested in England's opinion on this), and Turkey broke our Black Sea DMZ. I adopted a slightly hostile stance in negotiations with Germany in the hopes that he would turn away to avoid having to fight wars on two fronts, but he built F-Ber regardless. I was unhappy, but still hopeful, as I had strong relations with France, and I thought that Turkey and Austria were both likely to turn to me for help with Italy busy with France.

1902:
Turkey and Austria both NMR'd, which ended up being very bad for me, as I had decided to ally with Austria (really just because I had never played an A/R bfore and had heard it was an interesting alliance), and I think the support orders I submitted may have tipped Turkey off to my intentions and solidified the AT. I got Sweden, but Austria moved to Galicia, and from there everything went downhill.

1903:
I'm in big trouble. Austria and Turkey coordinated the Spring moves well, and while I had helped bring about an end to the F/I war, Italy was firmly pro-Austrian and thus of little help to me. I continued to have tense relations with England and weary but quickly improving relations with Germany.

1904:
I continued to lose ground in the South, and a breakup of the E/F spelled bad things for me. Germany helped England into Sweden, and my motives turned from a good end result to revenge. I destroyed my two home center units because they weren't going to do me any good anyway, and I wanted to throw the board dynamics against E and G, who were the primary objects of my lust for revenge at that point.

1905:
I made a number of proposals to various nations involving damaging Germany, but the only person willing to work with me was Germany himself. The silver-tounged devil quickly turned me into his pawn, promising me a spot in the draw and such. This was also when I got the strong feeling that Marx was Germany (anonymity is hard), which led me to believe that my time was short regardless, and I decided to just play it out and hope that something interesting would happen. I took Sweden, and then chose to destroy it as Germany promised me Berlin (a promise I was only willing to consider possibly sincere due to a seemingly looming Austrian attack, to defend from which he would need several armies).

1906:
I maintained my vengeful persona to the rest of the board, and banked everything on Berlin. We bounced, and that was it for me. Germany then sent me a very long message explaining himself that seemed a little bit weaker than the rest of his diplomacy (key points were: "I don't like diplomacy anymore," and, "I'm probably going to lose anyway, I didn't want to put you through that"). I'd be interested to hear Marx's side of this whole story, as it is likely to differ considerably from mine.

Good game, all. Congrats to Dys Claimer, MadMarx, and cspieker. I hope all of you F2Fers enjoy the site and choose to stick around.

This was an extremely difficult game, I never felt comfortable until the very end, and I'm still not quite sure how things worked out for me, but I'll obviously take it:

1901:
France spoke the truth when he said he had decided to fight me very early, which I think is crazy, why not keep an open mind and chat with everyone, give everyone a fair shake at the beginning of a game? Regardless, it was clear that France was coming at me from day one. I expected peace from A/I in the short term, as I always do as Germany. My main focus for an ally was England, though I had hoped to keep Russia on good terms. I decided to bounce Russia out of Sweden and forever piss him off, partially due to R/T looking friendly that spring, though I'm guessing partially also as an attempt to get England on my side, to show England that I was wanting to work with him against both France and Russia (assuming it was both or neither, and I knew I needed help with France).

1902:
Damn, France took Ruhr, very aggressive. I decided to get France out of Ruhr, unfortunately Belgium took Holland unopposed and Ruhr retreated to Bel, so I lose a unit, bummer, down to four. I've got a full-on E/F coming at me, so it's time to pucker up big time, kiss Russia's ass and hope he will at least not blitz me, I certainly would die very quickly if he did, though luckily A/T are coming at Russia in the south, so even though he can't help me with the E/F, at least he's not joining the E/F against me.

1903:
The key to my entire game was likely ordering Denmark to Hel this spring, bouncing England out, and thus guaranteeing I would not lose another unit this year. Seems insignificant enough, but England could see it would difficult to take me down and England shifted against France, which was a step in the right direction, but my outlook was still poor since I figure if England grows on France he'll just come after me soon enough since it will be difficult for me to grow with England in Holland.

1904:
I need to get back to five centers, in my opinion, so even though I had England join me by stabbing England, I banked on E/F fighting regardless of what I did, so I took Holland from England this spring. France tried to sneak into Tyrolia to get another unit on Munich, but Austria helped me out by bouncing France out, which was great, obviously. That fall, I'm not really sure what I was thinking, but I tried to smooth things over with England so I could take Belgium from France, which was guaranteed for me if England was on my side, which got me two builds. In exchange I supported England into Sweden and the E/G was on against France while Russia was super pissed at me and going to suicide against me. Luckily A/T were friendly and at least I was up to six units, which gave me a little bargaining power.

1905:
I'm not re-reading text, just looking at the map and trying to remember what was going on. 1905 doesn't make a lot of sense! I cut a deal with Russia, to be my game long ally, especially with Austria having many armies close by, I'd need his help. To get Russia on my side, I had to support him into Sweden, to keep England in check, and hope France would work with me again. There was seriously a lot of flopping around in the northwest, which is atypical for my games. In my defense, both E/F were lying and after me from the start of the game, so I never felt bad returning the favor of lying to them, the three of us sort of got used to total chaos between us and this game was just an absolute mess, I was totally out of control and that is not how I typically play, so my hopes were not very high, especially with Austria in Tyrolia/Boh after fall moves. France retreating to Venice really screwed Italy over and that meant Austria would very likely be heading my way, another reason for Russia to be my game-long ally, and why Russia kept Silesia rather than the fleet in Sweden, I needed his help near my home centers.

1906:
France takes Belgium from me while Russia is posting on the global tab how he wants help attacking me... Russia claims he's trying to look for diplomatic options to somehow help us, which I don't buy, Russia is clearly making me look weak and like an easy target, I feel as though he has violated our game-long alliance by throwing me under the bus, so I felt I had to kill him or who knows what he'd try next. If Russia had been a solid ally that presented himself as someone I could trust, I would have stuck with him long-term, until the end, but I was getting nothing but bad vibes. So, even though I lost Belgium, I picked up Sweden, but with France fighting me and me fighting England, the northwest was still a mess, *and* the southeast was resolving itself now, so something was going to give somewhere, I could only hope it wouldn't involve Austria blitzing me.

1907:
The Austrian NMR that spring worked great for me, Turkey was helping me with England and I took Belgium back from France, so even though I was fighting both England and France, my backside was currently safe... Until fall, when Austria decided to submit orders again, damn! The build for Belgium came in pretty handy, another army to defend against Austria. OH, now I remember, England was being the most annoying ass!! ;-) England kept blackmailing me and being pushy, telling me he'd work with me but demanding Sweden from me while he wouldn't help me defend Belgium from France, and I don't remember what else, but the guy really annoyed me with all the bullshit he was flinging my way. I seriously needed France to be okay with me having Belgium and to help me kill off England and defend against the A/T coming our way. Austria had told me, more than once, that he would not come after me, so the stab was on and I lost all trust in Austria, which comes into play later on.

1908:
England was still demanding Sweden, and still claimed he'd be my ally if I gave him Sweden, all the while he destroyed Edi which gave France that center free and clear. Not sure how France talked England into that, but France and I agreed for me to convoy Belgium to Edi in exchange for France getting Belgium, and somehow we both followed through for once! At the same time, A/T started fighting, so things were really looking up for me, especially since Turkey had be very friendly the entire game and the two of us never lied to each other, so I trusted Turkey a lot (obvioulsy more than France, which seemed to annoy France a bit, but France and I had a rough history to forget too quickly). In the fall Turkey supported me into Norway, so I got another build, and Austria lied about using Gal to support Sil into Warsaw, which to me meant that Austria was leaving a unit in Silesia to attack me, which, when combined with Austria's past lies/stab, I did not trust Austria at all, zero. France and I discussed how it was vital that France and I talk to Austria like we didn't trust each other, in an attempt to get Austria to attack Turkey without fearing that F/G would quickly pull Turkey in against Austrai, which worked, and I was more than happy to see Austria die since Austria did nothing for me all game long and only lied/attacked me, Austria was by far the biggest negative player in the game as far as Germany was concerned.

1909:
Austria asked me to build a fleet to attack France, claiming he'd build a fleet, but as I said, I didn't trust Austria at all, so I thought he was lying and fulling planning to build an army, so I was more than happy to do the same thing to him and also build an army. Holy crap did my army build ever piss Austria off! Austria was back to blitzing me and I was fine with that, I could tortoise up and take some punches knowing it would open up Austria to an attack by Turkey while France and I finished off England and France shifting to the southern seas against Austria. I was finally starting to see that I might survive this mess! Everything worked great that fall, Turkey got three builds while France and I each got a build, Austria was in trouble now, especially since Turkey was talking nice with Austria while Austria was still pissed at me.

1910:
This spring sealed the deal, Turkey blitzed Austria while we killed the Austrian army in Prussia. The fall saw me get a bit paranoid about France, so I changed my order up at the last minute to take North Sea, which France really came unglued about, but honestly that's just how the F/G was destined to be this game, always frustrated about something and never fully trusting, but in the end we pulled together to keep from Turkey getting a solo and that was that.

Okay, not my best EoG ever, but I wanted to get something up, so I just went based on my memory as much as possible. It honestly was a very stressful game, which is pretty cool, especially having survived, but I much prefer to find an honest ally early on that I can work with 100% and fool myself into thinking the person will never stab me, I'm a simple guy and boring is just fine by me, I'm all about trusting and being trusted, which I found with Turkey in this game, but it would have been much better for me to have found that in an immediate neighbor early on, at least as far as my stress level was concerned.

I feel I have to defend myself a bit on this one. If I had chosen to ignore everyone else on the board and then take Berlin, I would have completely lost credibility with the rest of the board, which would have meant that my only use would have been sitting in one of your home centers, something you would have gotten tired of in the long run. By preaching publicly that I was not aligned with anyone, I could have remained a crazy unpredictable element, vital to everyone, yet loyal to you (as you had spared me), and that really would have been my only chance of coming out of that game alive.

Hey, Chuck, I forgot to mention that you can look back at all messages, go into the game and at the bottom of the page click on messages.

So Mark, why didn't you go after France when Austria stabbed me? It seemed like there was very little downside.

I certainly appreciated the help, but I was surprised to actually get it.

Agreed. As alluded to, I was quite pleasantly surprised when you didn't go after France too.

Did you trust Austria less than France!? I guess Austria was going to be pretty hard to stop at that point if you had let him destroy Turkey. And at the same time, Germany could have gotten a bit bogged down in France, allowing Austria to jump you once Turkey was interred.

Thanks for the info about the messages. That is cool that they are all in the same bin now so you can see all your correspondence without flipping to different countries.

Now I see why I went with England. Things got a little testy between F and G, and you seemed to be misinterpreting a lot of what I wrote. I figured that might be a constant struggle if we were to become allies, so I went with England. That was basically a tie breaker though. Both E and G were being so friendly. Both said they thought the E/F, F/G were their "favorite" alliances! :-D Also, I thought that since things between us were so testy there, that I could be almost assured that you would cover Munich, thus leaving Ruhr open. Like you wrote above, that bounce in Helgoland was crucial. Things may have worked out quite differently for Germany had that not occurred.

I'm just not sure he would have gotten that bogged down in France. France had shifted pretty far south to try to prop up Italy against me.

I'm not saying he could have eliminated France without getting stalled at some point, but it seems like he could have taken a pretty big bite out of France, and kind of relegated him to a minor power status. It's true that Austria would get big, but it would have taken Austria quite a while to actually eliminate me.

I agree with all that. I was just guessing at Germany's motivations.

I think it would have been more of a gamble to go after France, higher reward, but also risk of higher loss.

First off, I'm a bit risk averse. The more I play, the more I realize that my top priority in a game is not to solo, it is to insure than nobody solos on me. The shame is just too great. So, I never "race" to the solo, it's not in my blood. So, the entire concept of Austria and me (Germany) racing to a solo was never going to happen.

Other than that, in 1908 I was still pretty bitter with Austria for his lies/stab, for shifting into Tyrolia/Boh/Sil in Autumn 1907. The wound was fresh, and in spring 1908 Austria agreed to move his units away from me. Spring 1908 Austria moved Boh away from me, but was still in Tyrolia and Silesia. Austria then specifically told me he'd use Gal to support Sil into Warsaw, thus getting two of the three units bordering my home centers away from me, and specifically the unit in Sil that borders two of my home centers was to go to Warsaw. As you can see, Autumn 1908 saw Austria leave his army in Silesia as well as a unit in Tyrolia, which meant to me he planned to shift on me again very soon, perhaps even within a single game year, once Turkey was on the ropes. SO, I had lost all faith in Austria with this decision, Austria leaving a unit in Silesia in Autumn 1908, so there was no way in hell I was about to build a fleet and leave my back side exposed to an Austria that had proved he was willing to lie to me and blitz me, especially when he was still in Tyrolia and Silesia, especially given the fact that I was extremely confident in the fact that Turkey would want revenge on Austria, and killing off Austria would be a foregone conclusion. Furthermore, Turkey had been a good ally to me, even though he was not an immediate neighbor. Sure, Turkey refused to stab Austria earlier in the game, but that showed me Turkey was a loyal ally, and Turkey did work with me against England in Scandinavia, so if either Austria or Turkey was to die, I much prefered the stab-happy Austrian die than the loyal Turk.

Also, given the whole A/T situation, and given the fact that nearly the entire game I felt as though I could be killed off at most any moment, I was perhaps a bit too happy to play a little defense against France and allow the southeast to take care of itself, and, to be fair, I've been in need of a break from this site for some time, so I was ready for this game to finish up, as sad as that is.

Are you sure your malaise is not due to attending the WACcon and feeling that the online version is a mere poor substitute for the intensity of F2F? Perhaps you are feeling the depression of the addict who can no longer get the same high from the previous dose.

Who, me or Mark? ;-)

Total aside here - I also misunderstood the "points" thing that webdip uses. Not that anyone really cares, but I didn't understand that if it was a draw we'd all share the pot equally. I assumed that you got a proportional share to your SCs, since that's what it's showing you all game long.

Again it doesn't really matter, but that particular part of the interface seems silly to me. What's the point of telling me that my 12 SCs is worth X points, if I'm never actually going to get that number of points. I'm either going to get all the points if I solo, or I'm going to get 1/3 of them if it's a 3-way (or whatever) It seems like a meaningless bit of information that can only serve to confuse someone.

I have to admit, part of my willingness to just end the game also came form the fact that it was clear that Germany and France didn't really want to play any more. It's hard to manipulate them into doing what I want if they're kind of checked out. Plus it seemed rude to drag it out.

I was willing to play more, but just not willing to stab Germany as I knew you had an easy road to a solo if I did that. I was also ready to lead you onto that merry road if Germany would have kept trying to nibble at my centers. If neither of those things happened I'm sure we could have locked you out of 18. And I think we all understood that.

I don't think you had to worry about being rude. That's what's nice about online play as opposed to in person play. You don't have to worry so much that you are overstaying your welcome, or getting someone in trouble with the wife if you keep them at the table while you beat away on the stalemate line. With online we can just check in every two days and put in some orders, and it's no big deal!

I agree about the point value thingy. I guess that is if you play a different version (PPSC, points per supply center). And even then, everyone still gets an equal share of the pot if there is a draw. The only way people will get those point values is if someone solos. Pretty screwball that they have this site set up so that the default method of playing is one where you can get points when you lose to a solo.

Why play more when neither France nor I would stab each other, since neither of us wanted Turkey to solo?

Sorry, guys, assumed this game was still going, but just realized you guys ended back on May 12th. I'll go through and write something up. I must say, an interesting game, and a lot of back and forth. Not entirely unpredictable in the outcome after Mark and I were unable to come to a mutual agreement when I stabbed Turkey. :)

I'll pour through some of the game maps and moves and post some thoughts in the next few days.

Just finished reading through most of the posts. Haven't gotten through Mark's EoG statement yet. But interesting to hear Mark's philosophy on being risk adverse. I don't anticipate that the two of us would be "racing to a solo", so much as the two of us racing to finish off the other sides of the board while maintaining a weary eye on each other. :)

At least everyone else seems to be asking the same questions about why you didn't turn on France, Mark. :) I'll try to post some of our back and forth messages in my post also, so others can get a good sense of the conversations you and I were having in those critical game moments right before, during and after I stabbed Matt.

It should be fun! All in all though, well played game by all. Mark was in seriously dire straits early on and Matt came back from a tough stab to top with 14. I was almost as frustrated with Matt as with Mark. But at the end of the day, Matt's explanation to me did mullify me about the fact he had 17 locked with my support, but 18 would be tough to come by.

Diplomacy isn't a game one can really be cautious as a general pattern of behavior. Certainly there are times to be cautious, but solos never come to cautious. You do have to take chances to get the solos and usually, you have to take a few chances to even top most boards. Whether those chances are in the moves you make or the holes you leave in your defense. It's a lot easier to negotiate those in my opinion in the F2F realm. You can see your ally, you can read his or her face, and you can see who is talking to whom, what their body language is with you, vs. others, etc. E-mail is a tough place to read people. :)