I'm new to diplomacy and I like Italy so far, I dont have a lot of experience but Italy hasn't done to badly in the games I have been in.

e.g. check of one of my current games. Im using it right now

I can't talk about games currently ongoing, I know that, but perhaps I can bump this thread at some point with a Game ID. for some thoughts. I reckon I started quite brightly but it fell apart and I dunno why. Keen to learn, not get the hump lol. will def look for that thread, cheers C

gameID=69287#

I suppose like everything else it does depend on who is doing what around you.....if for example France is preoccupied wtih England or germany, you can go that way, or if Austria is preoccupied with Germany or Russia you can go that way....I dunno.....like you Minty I am quite new to Diplomacy....gonna wacth this theread and see what's said. And thanks everyone.

Oooh if Austria is worried about Germany, pounce immediately. Because both of them will almost invariably collapse.
The thing about Italy isn't that it's necessarily hard to do stuff with, it's just that the way forward isn't entirely clear. Once you've taken Tunis, your next area of expansion is hard to decide. There is never really an obvious or clear next step for what to do with Italy.

I read a column by an expert that said the key to doing well as Italy is picking a course of action and sticking to it... just try something, ANYTHING to get some momentum. Italy is arguably the most difficult country to make initial headway with (England??) so the best bet is to just do something fast and hope the other pieces fall into place.

That makes sense about Italy.
And really? England is hard to make headway with? I suppose that makes some sense given it's isolation, but the thing is, I've never had trouble picking a course of action as England. Nine times in ten with England it's immediately apparent to me what the best way forward is, even if it'll take a little longer to do it than other countries, but I've had a lot of success with England, I like playing it. I do prefer the naval game to the land, and I mean, that's what England is all about. I've had more trouble making headway as Turkey myself. Nearly impossible.

I have a %100 Win/draw record with Italy on this website so far, so maybe I can offer some insightful advice. I'll try to be as general as possible so that the advice might be useful to a new player.

First, I think your best natural ally is Germany. That is the country least likely to take an SC that you want for yourself. Of the 18 SCs Germany would likely get for a solo win, very few are ones that Italy typically gets in a solo win scenario. A strong Germany often creates a situation that is good for Italy.

Second, your other good natural ally is Russia. A strong Russia often is good for Italy, but slightly less so than Germany because Russia's 18 usually include all the Turkish home centers and sometimes some of the balkan centers that you will need for yourself.

Third, your worst enemy is Turkey. If Turkey is able to ally Russia or Austria, he will build a bunch of fleets, fleets with no other realistic objective than taking all of your centers. If Turkey DOESN'T build fleets (if he is foolish, persuade him to build just armies) then you should invade him anyways because he won't be able to defend himself, and your 18 centers will typically have to include the Turkish home centers.

Fourth, only attack France at the start if you're CERTAIN that England and Germany will too, AND that Russia will be focused on the south and not pressure England or Germany into making peace with France.

Fifth, if Russia and Turkey both want you to attack Austria in 1901, you probably shouldn't do it. Whenever R/T ally, the best scenario for them is that Italy helps them kill Austria, and then Turkey fights Italy while Russia focuses north while they both take all your gains you got against Austria. I've seen plenty of games where the first player eliminated is Austria and the second eliminated is Italy. If Russia wants is serious about a long term alliance with you, tell him you want to take out Turkey first and Austria second. If he won't attack Turkey, then you probably shouldn't attack Austria.

Sixth, you don't have to grow fast to play a good game. I've seen plenty of games end with Italy included in a draw even though Italy didn't go past 4 centers until 1905 or later.
I've seen many Italian players make stupid, suicidal moves from the strategic point of view because they just wanted to take a center. If Austria is protecting you from R/T, don't take Trieste just because you can and because you haven't taken a 5th center!! You will be next! Don't take Marseilles just because you can - what if the fall of France leads to the English breaking into the med?? Pay close attention to what is happening around you strategically and don't ensure your own defeat by greedily taking centers.

There's a lot more but I'm tired.

Mafia: you may be right... I've not played as England, I'm just repeating what I've heard/read, and knowing this forum if I just said "Italy is the hardest" I'd have a hundred people giving counterexamples.

That's why "arguably" is one of the most useful words I've ever learned :)

Italy is the most "diplomatic" country at the start.
It is hard to grow without severe help, but you also aren't a serious target, either...
They say it is difficult to win as Italy, but Italy is the reason a game ends the way it does.

The easiest place to attack is Austria. However, if you do it too early, you can basically pave the way for a juggernaut. The lepanto is a popular start, but you end up with a disjointed country that Austria can divide and conquer.

The best strategy of Italy is to get scs where you can, but not make a serious move until midgame. Remember, it isn't a strong strategy to grow as fast as possible from the start, because the biggest country entering midgame usually becomes the biggest target for everyone else.

Take you time... Bide your time... Diplome heavy.. Work to grow late.

Dear Check:
Some good points were made in the following Forum thread:

Italian Strategy - why is it always the same? (on p. 781 of the Forum archive)

I also agree with the "grow slowly" strategy. My overall take is that Italy is hard to win with but really fun to play, and that means a good deal more.

This is good stuff......thanks everyone....I probably won't get Italy for six months now lol

incidentally in the game I was playing when I started this thread, I outlasted Germany and Austria and got a few points back after surviving with a lone fleet :D

gameID=67781
@Swordsman
"Third, your worst enemy is Turkey. If Turkey is able to ally Russia or Austria, he will build a bunch of fleets, fleets with no other realistic objective than taking all of your centers. If Turkey DOESN'T build fleets (if he is foolish, persuade him to build just armies) then you should invade him anyways because he won't be able to defend himself, and your 18 centers will typically have to include the Turkish home centers."

You obviously haven't seen the power of the Italian/Turkish alliance. It is one of the most powerful alliances in the game, behind the Juggernaut, and Western Triple, and more common ones like FG/EF/EG. I have never lost a game where I've allied with Turkey, as Italy, or vice-versa. It has always ended up in the draw, or a stab for the win, which everyone should be looking for. (I agree with the rest of what you said though)

Great post swordsman. Turkey and Italy are certainly not natural allies. If you are Italy and are planning to let turkey live you need to have a very good reason for doing so.

In regard to the original post, Italy is more challenging because it does not occupy a corner, it has a slower growth rate in the beginning (usually), and it requires greater diplomatic skill. On the plus side, a solo with Italy is one of the more rewarding experiences in diplomacy. Italy is definitely my favorite country to play.

Actually - failure to recognize the inherent Turkish threat coupled with greed for nearby Austrian centers leads to the demise of many an Italy.

question; you didn't move the first few turns on purpose??

No, it's just that Italy doesn't have to do more than take Tunis on turn one. An alliance with Austria is often critical to obtain on turn one as well.

oh, sorry, i meant Scmoo

I agree with most of this. I had the good fortune of playing as Germany in a game where Edi Bursan (inventor of the Lepanto and Sealion openings, for those who don't know) took over a CD italy in Autumn 1901. He went on to win the game with me and Russia as allies. Edi didn't grow until midgame. here is the ID

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6530#gamePanel

Countries that are far away from Italy, and therefore natural allies: Russia, Germany, England. All three will start as your allies, and hopefully you'll get to pick the order in which they become your enemies.

Countries that are close to Italy, and therefore natural enemies: Austria, France, Turkey. All three are your enemies until it's safe for them not to be.

Italy struggle? Bah humbug! I love Italy! So much possibility yet so little risk. Austria is your biggest threat and he is a fool to go after you with Russia and Turkey waiting to eat him up. France and Italy just stalemate in the NAf-Pie line. You can *always* get Tun in 01. It's a great country to play! My second favorite behind Italy's neighbor, France.

Countries that are close to Italy, and therefore natural enemies: Austria, France, Turkey. All three are your enemies until it's safe for them not to be.

Early game. 2 of these have to be your best friend, generally Austria/France for a successful Italy, Turkey *can* be, but that requires absolute trust. The only way the I/T normally works out is if Turkey opens with an offensive to Russia, and Italy opens offensive to Austria, and hope that Austria opens offensive to Turkey, and Russia opens offensive to Austria. Thus, Trieste and Tunis fall to Italy, Rumania and Sev *could* go to Turkey, Russia nets a whopping 0, and Austria will only take Serbia.
^^^^^^^Rare Bird Right There^^^^^^^

I just saw that in a game I'm in where I'm Turkey. I find that, so long as Russia is onboard, All you need is peace with France. Russia handles Turkey and keeps him busy while Italy takes out Austria. Then Italy goes north to German while Russia starts on England and helps.