I tried to explain that in WTA survives are defeats. But he refused to believe me.

Oh, well I wasn't trying to crow. I just wanted to say I've enjoyed the games I've played. I was enjoying not having a defeat on my record and thought I'd just write a good-humoured post about first defeats. I was Russia, which I've always felt has been a tougher cookie to play as.

Bring on the 50 games :)

survive is barely better than a draw imho.

Well at least in a draw you prevent anyone else from winning, in a survive you just lost while one palyer won, it is only better than being eliminated in that you can't stop someone from winning if you are eliminated - so any actions which help you survive are only of value if they are used to stop someone else from winning.

In my mind a survived is clsoer to winning, but is still just the same as being eliminated. (but then in my mind a draw is the equivalent of a defeat, it just happens to be a defeat where you prevented everyone else from winning too)

@Sirius - Funny you should say that. My last draw was as Russia with me the top player at 14 SCs and the game I'm wrapping up now will end with me, as Russia, in a three way draw nearly completely perfectly equal with France and Austria.

As long as you don't work with Turkey too closely so the others don't see Juggernaut from Spring 01, you can do OK with Russia.

@orathaic - I know how you view draws, but you really think a survive is better than a draw?

In PPSC games it is.

Is there a standard rule? Apart from the rating system used on this website, it seems for a lot of players it is also a subjective matter? Personally, without taking ratings or points into consideration, I think the idea of simply being able to say you survived a game sounds a lot better than being defeated.

@Draugnar - Sounds like you've done good! I've found Russia often gets lynch-mobbed. I've played the board game before playing the game here on webDiplomacy. I've found Russia, Austria and Italy are the hardest ones to play although sometimes the most dynamic.

@ Sirius: Yes, surviving is better than defeat. But that's all.

A draw is better than a survival because it generally implies you had an equal influence in bringing about the end of the game.

@Sirius - I've been playing Diplomacy since before the web existed (started in Junior High circa 1978), so I know what you mean. The key to Russia is talk, talk, talk. You *must* communicate with Rueky, Germany, Austria, and England from the very start. I mean within hours (or minutes if live) of drawing Russia. If you don't, everyone assumes you will be Juggernauting with Turkey.

Rueky = Turkey Odd typo that...

Lol

1978! You're practically a veteran at this game then :)

Unfortunately, in the game I was defeated, I was Russia and it was a gunboat. :(

Gunboat is harder as Russia. You have a big target on you starting with 4 SCs, and you are one of the fiew who can truly be denied an SC/build in '01.

perhaps your score would look better if you didn't go advertising it all over the forum ;)

the failure, that is

@Draugnar - 'I know how you view draws, but you really think a survive is better than a draw?'

No, i don't think a survive is better. It is strictly worse, because you have failed to stop someone else winning.

I'm just saying a survive isn't any better than being eliminated. (except that while you are surviving you still have the opportunity to stop someone else from winning)

After the game you either win, lose or draw. eliminated = survived (and i can't think why the stats shouldn't reflect this)

And yes there is a standard version of the rules.
http://www.diplom.org/~diparch/diplomacy_rules.htm

As far as i'm aware the most modern version only change some minor things related to convoy paradoxes. (from the boardgame) i admit that this site supports two variants - PPSC and WTA (apart from gunboat which is more obviously a variant) - and i am currently only playing in league games, which specifically calls for players to meta-game (consider the overall league positions before deciding who to help or hinder... while forbidding making deals between games - a very fine line) Still i'm enjoying this variant a lot because you get to know 6 other players and so each game is more rewarding than 4 individual games would be...

Then why did you say "survive is barely better than a draw imho.", orathaic?

Draugnar, circa 1978 is not bad. I graduated 1975 from HS and remember playing as a somewhat experienced player with my eldest brother when he was perhaps two years out of HS, approx 1972. Thank god for the internet :)

Interested in buying a wooden Diplomacy set lol. (not selling, but proud of it)

clearly i'm mis-spoke. i'm not sure upon re-reading why i wrote that, definitely meant something different. I apologise for any confusion my stupidity may have caused.

Also when i say in my humble opinion, i don't mean to imply i'm not talking like a jerk who thinks he knows everything... It is just my loud opinion, which I fully admit means about as much as the next persons.

I was just poking at ya', orathaic. You know me. I live by the Dennis Leary theme "I'm an asshole!"

Don't feel too bad! I've been playing 26 years. In those 26 years I've been completely knocked out of exactly ONE game! It was the first game I played on this site, World Variant. Underestimated the importance of the seas and Brazil handed me my hat as USA! I led the draw on the next World Variant I played.

If you are a careful player, aggressive at the right times, patient at others you can build a pretty impressive "resume". I've survived by the skin of my teeth a few times but am otherwise proud of my own track record. Across five sites, I average either winning or drawing over 80 % of the games I play. I like the well played strong alliance even draw. I know some don't agree but to me in some ways it speaks better of your "diplomatic skills" to navigate the minefield of a full game alliance. Just my opinion. Congrats on the good track record!

That's a pretty impressive resume HeavyRevy. It will interesting to see how you go here. I like to think the standard on this site is high. But with your experience you would be in a good position to tell.

in PPSC, a survive is fine... in WTA, the survive is actually WORST than a defeat I think... because it means you actually let someone SOLO... whereas in a defeat, it just means you were not included in the draw (maybe despite your best efforts).

WTA and PPSC are two different games...

but whatever... think what you want...