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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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bosoxfan9 (100 D)
19 Sep 10 UTC
Fast game
Join game. u have 10 min. phase=5min.
0 replies
Open
Эvalanche (100 D)
19 Sep 10 UTC
Would anyone like to replace Italy ?
He isn't in too bad of a spot but his nmr's left him a bit smaller
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38451
0 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
03 Sep 10 UTC
M14 Versus M16
The eternal debate.

Which is better? What should we be issuing to our soldiers?
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@ warsprite --

Not true. Most M4 carbines include a foregrip as part of their modular weapon system. With a vertical foregrip and pistol grip, all of the recoil from the weapon goes to the shoulder, instead of up like with a traditional grip.
yebellz (729 D(G))
17 Sep 10 UTC
@TMW,

1) So, you believe for 40 years that the US armed forces have been using an inferior weapon? The M16 and AK family are not the only assault rifles. There's is a huge list of assault rifles that have been adopted by the various armed forces from around the world, some chambering the same 5.56x45mm round as the M16 and others chambering a different but similar round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assault_rifles
Are you arguing that all of those countries also choose to use an inferior weapon just to because the US decided to? Do you think that all of these military leaders would be choosing an inferior weapon simply due to a "single political decision" made decades ago?

2) You are simply rejecting the fact that changing military doctrine lead to the rise of the assault rifle philosophy. I do not think you are qualified to argue this matter. Sure you may have some civilian experience with these weapons, but have you gone into combat? I think it takes an experienced military leader to fully understand and make these type of decisions.

3) Why do you think that this is the relevant/appropriate forum for airing your opinions on this issue? Aren't there plenty of political/military forums on the internet for you to share your opinions? Surely there are places where your opinion would be more welcome and more effective. This is a website for playing Diplomacy online. It's about a Board Game, one that is very abstract like chess and far removed from anything resembling warfare. Sure we sometimes get into off topic discussions on the forum, but mainly the discussion should center around the game. Your obsession with constantly arguing these random off-topic political opinions is as absurd as if you were doing this on a forum for a chess or canasta or chutes and ladders website.
warsprite (152 D)
17 Sep 10 UTC
M4 is not most assult rifles, it's an carbine not a full length assult rifle. The fact is most do not, and you have evaded to the question.
drano019 (1003 D)
17 Sep 10 UTC
TMW -

I'm hardly an expert on any of this, but here's my take:

You have made the argument that the M14 is better than the M16 partly because it has more firepower, and it has the ability to go to full automatic if lots of bullets are needed fast. You also have argued that the gun is controllable in full auto and even went so far as to say "Soldiers will almost always use full auto when presented with the option. Unless they are in a situation where ammunition conservation is necessary.".

My rebuttals to those points. Yes, the M14 has more firepower than the M16. But firepower is hardly all that matters. In modern warfare, there isn't a big line of enemies to shoot at where you can just aim downfield and probably hit one no matter what. The single shot style of the M14 lends itself to sharpshooting, NOT normal combat. In normal combat, often the goal is not always to necessarily hit the enemy, but to lay down covering fire so that other elements of your unit can maneuver around to flank. The M16, with its burst firing is clearly better at covering fire than the M14.

"But the M14 has full auto capacity and would be great at covering fire!" I hear you say. Yes, you're right. It DOES have full auto capacity. It also has a mere 20 round clip. Using full auto, that clip would be gone in a couple of heartbeats, requiring our soldier to load up and waste much more ammo in order to suppress the enemy than if he were laying down covering fire with the burst fire and larger clip of the M16. After all, our soldiers can only carry so much ammo into battle with them. IIRC from my marksmanship and leadership course in college (taught by an Army Reserve Captain), the average soldier carries around 10 -15 clips with him into battle. For the M14, thats about 200 - 300 rounds, for the M16, about 300 450 rounds.

Finally, about your point that soldiers will go full auto if given the opportunity. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're dead wrong on that. When we were taught about training by the Army Reserve Captain in college, he told us that soldiers are taught to shoot in single shot and burst mode. Full auto is FAR too inaccurate and wasteful on ammunition to be used. Think about it, if I have approximately 300 shots (15 clips of M14 ammo), and I get into a firefight, why would I waste 20 shots at a time going full auto? I'd be out of ammo in 20 minutes or less, and many firefights last much longer than that. Not to mention that I have to have ammo for later on in the day if necessary too. After lowering my ammo count, I'd be forced to fight in single shot mode which basically makes me a sniper without a sniper rifle. Hell, even the infantryman using the M249 in the squad doesn't really go "full auto" usually. They fire in approximately 10 round bursts with at least 2 to 3 seconds between bursts so that they can actually have time to aim the weapon and don't waste too much ammo (once again, coming from the Army Reserve Captain on that info).

One also needs to consider how much power you really need out of your weapon. Most enemies we fight today are unarmored. Unlike our troops, they have no body armor or helmets to protect themselves from our weapons. A quick burst from an M16 will take them down just as easily as a shot from the M14, but there will be 3 bullets spread out slightly instead of 1, giving a greater % chance of at least one of them hitting the target and incapacitating them. If the situation came up where our troops were up against body armor, they could easily call in support for more powerful weaponry, but the fact remains that in most combat situations, our troops don't NEED the higher power weaponry.

Last but not least, there's this. From the wikipedia page for the M14 (I know, not the most reliable, but good enough for this), the M14 was designed to take the place of the M1 Garand, the M1 Carbine, the M3 "Grease Gun" and the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR). However, "It proved to be an impossible task to replace all four, and the weapon was even deemed "completely inferior" to the World War II M1 Garand in a September 1962 report by the comptroller of the Department of Defense.". At this point, the M16 was developed and the Army ran a series of tests resulting in the cancellation of the M14. Look man, the Army ran a frickin series of tests and decided the M14 wasn't good enough! The guys who know WAY more than us ran a test to decide exactly what you're asking and decided that YOU'RE WRONG! How much more can you ask for? The M14 still enjoys a role as a sharpshooter weapon, and in that employment, I will agree with you 100% that it is superior to the M16. However, as stated above, there are numerous reasons the M16 is superior to the M14 for basic combat infantry duty.

And really, do you honestly think the U.S. would equip its soldiers with inferior weaponry for over 40 years? Our country has a hardon for making sure our troops have the best shit out of anyone in the world, so why would we knowingly handicap our troops for 40+ years?
@ yebellz -- I'm not trying to argue that all assault rifles are inevitably inferior in all situations. They are not. That's why a lot of countries have adopted assault rifles. The rifle needs to fit the needs of the army. Why do you think so many people use the AK-47? It fits the needs of their military. What I am saying is that for the current war on terror, I believe the M16 is inferior to the M14.

@ warsprite -- Yes, but most assault rifles have a pistol grip, which changes the direction of the recoil.

@ drano -- You killed your own point regarding ammunition. You said that the M16 fires burst (which it does). You also said that the M14 fires semiautomatic (also true). You additionally stated that the Army stresses ammunition conservation and discourages full-auto shooting. That's also true. So why would you want a weapon that uses three times the ammunition of another weapon?

Regarding what went on at the Pentagon when they switched to the M16, I have a few things to say (that I have already said). The M14 was not fairly judged. There were factions within the military that had opposed the M14 and its ammunition from the start, and there were ArmaLite guys everywhere. The M16 was tested in near-laboratory sterile conditions, and the M16s used in tests were not the same as those intended for mass production. The M14 used in the test was (obviously) an unmodified factory M14 with a traditional rifle grip. Even though the M16 appeared to be equal to or superior to the M14 in tests, when it got to Vietnam, that was not the case. I honestly don't know why the report said that the M14 is inevitably inferior to the M1. That is not the case. The M14 is, in essence, a selective fire, magazine-fed M1 with a flash suppressor.
drano019 (1003 D)
18 Sep 10 UTC
TMW -

Once again misreading and misleading people with your responses. If you actually read my paragraph about ammunition conservation, you see that I am referring to FULL AUTO fire on the M14. It is a FACT that full auto is a ridiculous waste of ammo and thus my statement is not self-defeating.

And while you're going on about how the M16 uses 3 times the ammo of the M14, consider this. The M14 is a marksman weapon. Do you really think that most soldiers are going to be able to hit an enemy anywhere from 50 - 300 yards away in one shot? When they're under fire, soldiers get rattled. Your single shot M14 gives them 1 bullet to hit. If their aim is off even the tiniest bit (which is what will happen when you're getting life-threatening bullets shot at you), you're going to miss. The M16 at least gives you a 3 bullet spread (because no, they don't all go in a straight line, there's a recoil effect making it more of a triangle spread) which is 3X the likelihood of hitting the target. And of course, the M16 provides better ammo conservation while being used as a suppressive fire weapon as well.

I've noticed that you pick and choose your responses to suit your means. Why don't you respond to everyone ENTIRE post instead of just picking out phrases that you can attempt to counter (and in this case, not even counter well).

Oh and while the M16 MAY have been tested in near sterile conditions and deemed superior to the M14, if the M14 is so superior, why did they never switch back? It's been 40 years man, if the M16 was so terrible to the M14, surely someone would have noticed by now. Our military isn't stupid. If a weapon is better than another, they'll get rid of the inferior weapon. By suggesting that YOU know more than the military EXPERTS, you'll basically saying that everyone who makes decisions in our military doesn't know what they're talking about.
acmac10 (120 D(B))
18 Sep 10 UTC
This is mapleleaf's first post on this thread: "Ignore the troll and he will go away." Let's let him think he won but we all know deep down inside that the M-16 is better, and TMW will slowly fade away into the depths of....DA DA DA!!!! THE FORUM MWAHAHAHAHA (shrieks in the backround)!!!!!!
krellin (80 DX)
18 Sep 10 UTC
@acmac - I haven't read the entire thread - don't intend to listen to ALL the trolls on here. BUT...since TMW **started** the thread....how is *he* the troll?? That, on teh face of it, is simply a ridiculous statement and thus increases *your* Troll Credentials. acmac --> acmac + 1 Troll Point...
@krellin: because the thread itself is a troll

acmac -1 troll point
yebellz (729 D(G))
18 Sep 10 UTC
krellin -1
maybe krellin is just trolling with that response?
yebellz (729 D(G))
18 Sep 10 UTC
TMW, again, why are you doing this on this forum? Were you shunned by the forums for WebStratego and WebRisk? Why not try the forums for WebChutesAndLadders or WebCandyLand?
acmac10 (120 D(B))
18 Sep 10 UTC
That was 2nd post. I am sick of having this thread clog up my home page. First we have to get the troll points straight:

+1 troll point is bad

-1 troll point is good.

So if for example yebellz thinks TMW is a troll, he would write TMW +1 troll
krellin (80 DX)
19 Sep 10 UTC
Who is the troll? The troll who posts the threads? Or the trolls who continuously bump the thread screaming "Troll! Troll!!" You silly trolls...

I'm man enough to accept my +1 troll point for this and my previous post, but you holier-than-though fools that continue the thread you think has no merit by calling people names are EQUALLY as useless and TROLLISH as the original poster you claim to dislike.

You are like the person that says, "I hate mean name callers...you stupid jackass..." you hypocrisy is glaring...
ODaly (236 D)
19 Sep 10 UTC
Seriously, people haven't let this die yet?
+1 to not letting go of pointlessness
ODaly (236 D)
19 Sep 10 UTC
Oh wait, my mistake. The thread starts with "the eternal debate" so of course people need to one-up each other into oblivion.


135 replies
diplomat61 (223 D)
17 Sep 10 UTC
Atheism = Nazism
Yesterday Pope Ratzarse made a speech equating atheism with Nazism (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515). Discuss.
57 replies
Open
jcbryan97 (134 D)
18 Sep 10 UTC
Classic Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38413 36 hour phases

It's anon, but I think it would be fun to know who's in the game... so consider commenting here if signing up (but no requirement to do so obviously)
0 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
17 Sep 10 UTC
"MadMarx Beyond Metrodome" End Of Draft Statement.
I was picking on the turn. Which means that I was picking last in the draft order, tenth out of ten people. It also means that the draft was a serpentine draft, where I would get last pick and first pick in alternating rounds; two picks in a row all draft.


7 replies
Open
BigZombieDude (1188 D)
18 Sep 10 UTC
COD Black Ops
Not for everyone, granted, but is anyone on here who is above 20 going to be on line with Black Ops? PS3 or Xbox?

Need a few more for a clan. As long as your willing to be signed up for game battles...of course GMT would be ideal but im not picky at this stage.
0 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
18 Sep 10 UTC
LIVE GAME!!!!!!!
WTA anon 5 min/phases 20 D

gameID=38384
10 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
14 Sep 10 UTC
Absurd logic thread


Make an argument using wacktacular reasonong. Example: bottled water should be taxed for road maintenance, because if more water was available we'd be further along in fusion research, but the bottled water companies don't want their product classified as a fuel, so they keep sabotaging fusion research, and hence force us to burn fossil fuels
34 replies
Open
bosoxfan9 (100 D)
18 Sep 10 UTC
New quick original game
Join fast, it starts in 5 min./ phase=5 min.
2 replies
Open
Winston (100 D)
17 Sep 10 UTC
New anon gunboat
5 min phases 10 bet
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38371
0 replies
Open
fortknox (2059 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Predetermined draw and you aren't in it
OK, let's say there are 4 players left, 3 determine they'll draw and slowly destroy the 4th (diplomacy does nothing). If you are the 4th and have the ability to aid one of the others to solo, do you do it? I sure as hell would!
94 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
14 Sep 10 UTC
Is America Declining?
Following the path of Rome, to be specific.
110 replies
Open
Aeneas17 (544 D)
17 Sep 10 UTC
Country assignment
I just signed up for my first game. How and when will I be assigned a country?
6 replies
Open
Sakovitz (480 D)
17 Sep 10 UTC
Beginner Game Available
Hello, I have a game set up with 4 beginners and we are ready to play. If you want to be the 5th and final player to get this game going let me know!
2 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Sep 10 UTC
9/11: Nine Years Hence, a Rememberence...
Where were you? What were you doing? How did you find out?
What do you remember from the most significant day of the decade?

And RIP all the victims and all the heroes...we'll never forget you.
189 replies
Open
jcbryan97 (134 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Gunboat PW-protected nonlive
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38265

note interest here and I'll get you the password.
1 reply
Open
jcbryan97 (134 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Standard PW-protected game
36 Hour Phases
Password Protected
Note interest here and I'll get you the password
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38266
1 reply
Open
jcbryan97 (134 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Public Press PW-Protected
Public Press
Anon
36 Hour phases
note interest here and i'll get you the password
2 replies
Open
areow4 (0 DX)
17 Sep 10 UTC
1 more
join 5 minute phase otherwise known as live heres the link
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38320
1 reply
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
13 Sep 10 UTC
County Cricket- last games of the season
Is anyone else following the climax of the county championship? I am, and as a lions fan, it's soul destroying. Surely we can avoid coming bottom? Please?
12 replies
Open
Ebay (966 D)
15 Sep 10 UTC
Another try?
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38151
Ebay's new Anon game! For those in the last one and those of my invite game please feel free to join. No password this time. No cd's this I hope!
4 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
16 Sep 10 UTC
The Finessed Cut
taken from :http://www.diplom.org/~diparch/resources/strategy/articles/rulebook.htm
by Mark Berch
11 replies
Open
hopsyturvy (521 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
One for the game theorists
Before I start, I should make it clear that this is in no way related to any of my current games, but just a situation that comes up pretty regularly in different games.
43 replies
Open
Tabanese (445 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Chaos and what a noob thinks...
Hey, how mod-friendly is this site in regards to variants? I mean, if the players grouped together and rallied behind the desire to play a particular variant, would the admins be interested in catering to use? :P
17 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
16 Sep 10 UTC
Avaaz under attack!
looks here is where i pretend i'm trying to find out more, when i'm actually advocating people do something...

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stand_up_to_crony_media/?cl=748170559&v=7155
5 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
live gunboat in 5 minutes
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38284
0 replies
Open
Sun_Tzu (2116 D)
14 Sep 10 UTC
Cheater alert: Web & Samspaceplace
They were Turkey and Italy in a gunboat game and never attack each other. They are either one person or two people working close together. They missed the same turns and their moves were put in close together.This is the game: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=33212
21 replies
Open
`ZaZaMaRaNDaBo` (1922 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Uh...Bulgarian Open
Is it still on? Did I miss it?
3 replies
Open
Kaiasian (624 D)
16 Sep 10 UTC
Orders stop loading again. FML
Topic. T.T
0 replies
Open
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