This is assuming optimal moves for the builder? I'm inclined to think the two countries are France and Italy off the top of my head.

Please submit firs turn moves that guarantee a build.

Turkey can definately take Bulgaria by starting with Con->Bul, Smy->Con, Ankara->BS
France can take Spain with Mars->Spain, Par->Burg & Brest->MAO
Italy can take Tunis with Nap->Ion, Ven->Pie & Rom->Ven
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Those are three options for you - which one do you disagree with Dingle?

I can't find any combination that doesn't allow *some* way for a combination of the neighbors to at least take one center. Some of the moves are wildly implausible, but still valid

Following on from that, no country has a forced disband in 1901. ie - if they loose a unit it is because of a tactical flaw.

Figles, if England moves to English and Italy moves to Piedmont and Germany to Burgundy, then that France one is not guaranteed. If Spain moves back to Mars to cover it and Italy moves back to Venice, France doesn't take Spain.

Figle,
If France stays in Marseilles, and Austria (or Austria and Germany) take Tyrolia and Trieste, their concerted efforts could take Venice.

But I think you have the other two right.

Ah, nice. Dingle - which two did you have. To be fair, when i heard support from France&Italy and they 'felt' right I guessed they were. So, which pairing did you have? I'm pretty sure of Turkey, but as you've just pointed out the other two are wrong i'm slightly worried now!

I'd rather let someone try to figure it out. I do agree with Turkey.

Re: Italy.

Assume Nap->Ion, Ven->Pie & Rom->Ven
France has stayed in MAR. Austria has moved to Tyrolia.
Fall:
France disrupts Piedmont. Austria takes Venice.

Ah! If England moves Liv->Wales it can cover London from the possible French fleet in English. The two English fleets can move to NS & Norwegian and force Norway.
I revise my pairing: Turkey&England

austria has a guaranteed build

How about...

England
F-Edi-NWG
F-Lon-NOR
A-Lvp-Wal or Yor
then
F-NOR-Nor
F-NWG s F-NOR - Nor
A-Wal or Yor - Lon

It would be foolish because it would give up the North Sea. But as far as I can see it gets a guaranteed build with Norway.

Yes, England was my other.
Name it alamothe

lol alamothe :D

I think Austria may have a guaranteed disband actually. Who said that wasn't possible?

I don't think so Alamothe, as he needs two units to protect Trieste from Italy, Germany&Russia can put units into at least one out of Boh/Gal/Rum. Now, for only one of those 3 moves to have succeeded, both Austrian units must still be on home SC's.To take an SC, Budapest must move south, thus the other one must defend Venice. However, the German/Russian units can either disrupt this or take the empty SC depending which is free.

"Figles, if England moves to English and Italy moves to Piedmont and Germany to Burgundy, then that France one is not guaranteed. If Spain moves back to Mars to cover it and Italy moves back to Venice, France doesn't take Spain."

If France and Germany bounce in BUR, the french army can cover Brest, which leaves the fleet to take Portugal. If the Germans did not move there, Burgandy can move to MAR while the fleet moves back to Brest

I didn't think it was, but re-evaluation Austria I'm getting confused! I don't like being tired and ill - maybe I shouldn't be on diplomacy today :(

Ah, good point stratagos! And if Germany doesn't bounce him at Burgundy than he can cover Marseilles easily!

I think alamothe was joking?

Strategos - the trouble is that if Germany *doesn't* come and the other two do. My views on Austria:
------------- Spring
1) Only Warsaw can get within 'range' of budapest in one year. Thus the best defence Buda can provide is by moving to Galicia. 2)Vie->Gal ensures a bounce, leaving the two units in their starting positions.
3) Tri->Ven stops Italy moving Rom->Ven & Ven->Tyr, thus there are only two units in Boh/Tyr/Ven
--Autumn--
No matter which pairing exists, the Budapest unit can defend.
Following this logic, Austria does infact have an almost certain build, because unless there are units in Boh&Tyr, Vie is not at threat, so can support-hold Trieste, letting Budapest take Serbia

austria:
trieste - venice
vienna - galicia
bud - serbia
serbia is guaranteed. lol to you, stupid!

or do you think that germany could attack too? hmm

that's just not possible, whatever EdiBursan says

Under your scenairio figle the Turkish unit in Bulgaria moves to Serbia

I've found 3:
England is guaranteed a build with Lon-North, Edi-Norw, Liv-Yor/Wal.
Turkey is guaranteed with Con-Bul and either unit to Con.
France IS guaranteed with Mar-Bur, Par-Gas, Bre-Eng.

Austria comes close with the hedgehog (Vie-Gal, Bud-Ser, Tri-Ven), but Mun-Boh and Ven-Tyr can take Vienna in 1901

Haha, nice alamothe. But yes, I think I covered that in my post above - if you can find a double-up then do point it out. Also, how about if Russia doesn't attack, then Germany&Italy can take Venice.
Side point: Do you think with Austria it is possible to take 2 SC's whilst only loosing 1?

To counter alamonthe Ven- Tyr, Mun- Boh, Rom- Ven, War- Gal and Con- Bul
Then in the fall. Rom- Ven, Tyr sup Boh- Vie, Boh Vie, and Bul- Ser for good measure. Vienna taken!

fig, assume the following moves:

France - Fleet BRE > MAO, Army PAR > BUR, Army MAR > SPA

England moves to Channel. Italy moves to Piedmont.

If Germany moves to Burgandy, the Paris army bounced, and is back in Paris. In that case, it can move to Brest, and the Fleet can take Portugal.

If the German army did not move to Burgandy, then the French army can move to MAR, while the fleet moves back to Brest. The army in spain stays still.

Net result = +1 build, and an incredibly poor strategic position

WOW. I think you are right about France. Good call.

Yes, sorry Stratagos, I agree'd with you when i stopped. That was infact what I first worked out when i suggested it at the top, but after that I got rather confused by the speed at which the thread is growing with different people's views joining.
I'll shut up for the evening after saying that no-one has a forced disband, whilst France,England and Turkey have guaranteed builds.

xgons moves all check out. Its Turkey, England and France

okay, i didn't read the question properly. sorry! but germany attacking austria is still a joke

Its less ridiculous than England supporting North into Nwy

Haha alamothe. =)

Great exercise Dingleberry.

How about another one? What's the longest a country (and which country!) can avoid complete and guaranteed elimination assuming a mass conspiracy against the country and optimal moves.

Well Italy gets destroyed after 6

There are three Countries that can be guaranteed a build in 01
England, France and Turkey.
The corrected French orders are:
Fleet Brest-English/Mid
Army Paris-Bur
Army Marseilles Support Army Paris to Burgundy
then in the Fall the French Army Burgundy can cover Marseilles
REGARDLESS of what the Germans do.

NOTE by corrected I meant 'common'. Error, sorry.

Not to spoil anyone's fun on figuring out which countries can last the longest under optimal attack, the technique to use is to play the game against yourself and to make the target country's moves after the other powers moves.

For France, a better defensive move than Paris-Burgundy is Paris-Gascony (coupled with Brest-MAO and Marseilles-Spain). Gascony alone allows France to defend any of her home supply centers in the fall. It does, of course, deny her any say in Belgian affairs.

The problem with France moving to Mid/Gas/Spa is that if the enemy moves to Eng/Bur/Pie, they then could attack all the French home centers and France would not get its guaranteed build. That is why it is better to move to Burgundy with support from Marseilles as well as going to the Channel or Mid.