Agreed DeliciousWolf...something about him doesn't add up.

naw he's real, you can find youtube videos on him talking to obama... the mccain team were smart enough to pick him out and use him to their advantage... he's real.

You can see him speak after the presidential debate on BBC, he's eloquent alright but he's also pretty independent in his remarks, he sounds pretty undecided.

No, he's not undecided Kestas, he's said he knew even before the debate who he's voting for, he just won't say it's McCain.

Actually the update on Joe the Plumber is:
1. he is not a licensed Plumber, the County is now after him for that
2. he has two liens on his property for not paying taxes
3. he was not going to NET over 250,000 dollars, he was going to net much less, so under the Obama taxes he gets a Tax CUT not a gain.
4. Joe the Plumber is a registered member of the Natural Law party which has basically disappeared in the last 6 years, but whose previous policy related to the idea that the lack of meditation in the world was the cause of the problems in the world and that crisis in economy and the world could be dealt with by more meditation.
5. Finally Joe the Plumber was NOT contacted by the McCain team prior to the debate and found himself suddenly the center of the debate to his own great shock.

Hey Edi, I knew 1-3 and 5 where'd you'd get 4 ? That's far out!

He may get a tax cut through the O'bama program, I don't know that part of it too well, but a lot of the people that O'bama says will get a tax cut will, or rebate, will in fact be getting a handout. People who are too poor to pay income taxes will be getting money that they never payed into the system. That's wealth redistribution and he should call it that. That's fine if he and other Americans believe on ideas like that, but call a spade a spade and don't hide it behind vicious demagoguery.

Invictus:

1. 'O'bama is not Irish. It's Obama
2. Back up your claim that People will get a 'handout' or retract it.

As a payroll accountant, I can tell you that every employee pays FITW -Federal Income Withholding Tax out of every paycheck. A tax rebate is therefore returning your OWN money. Got that?

I assert that if you don't pay income taxes at all, a tax cut won't give you squat back. Prove your assertion.

Invictus:

http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

Everyone has to pay taxes, according to this. So assuming not everyone dodges the IRS successfully, I'd say that most people, if not all, pay taxes. So people get their taxes back as a rebate. It's not wealth redistribution. Don't try to use weasel words like that. It's poor form.

I can verify the federal income withholding tax thing. I didn't do payroll myself, but I wrote software that had this and about five other taxes coming out of every paycheck.

http://wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

There it is, smart guys. From the Wall Street Journal no less, one of our last bastions of truthful reporting. Everyone does not pay INCOME taxes. It says in that article that a third, a third, do not. He's not telling the whole truth on his policy. It's okay to agree with the plan, but why doesn't he state it as it is? The American people deserve better than to be played for fools like this.

And why the venom at me? Because I dared to question the good intentions of the most merciful savior? Am I gonna have to go through this for four years?

O'bama is just a joke, I know it's spelled Obama. Jeez.

Leaving aside my opinion of the WSJ, I'll give you full credit Invictus for proving your point with an article. Touche. However, might I point out that:

1. It's true, A third of Americans don't pay taxes because 20.1% of Americans are 14 years and younger.

CIA World Fact book: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People

Let's add several percent more for Americans 15 to 18, shall we? We could also add 12.7% for Americans 65 and older who probably are on Social Security and not paying taxes.

That 1/3 of Americans not paying taxes, doesn't sound so big, does it?

2. As for the rest, I'm looking forward to my Tax Credit / Handout. I've been paying high taxes for so long I think it's about time I get some of that back. If a couple of 'welfare queens' (what a B.S. term) get some money to put their kid into college, too I'm fine with it. The only people bitching about this plan are the Millionaires and their supporters, that is people who vote against their interests. Everybody else is voting Obama 08.

I'm just saying he should call it a handout because it is definitely no tax cut. All I want is for every politician to stop playing with semantics and tell us what they're really gonna do. You saw McCain had a system almost as cockamamie as this thing.

Just under half the country will not vote for O'bama even in a landslide. Are you saying half of America's population are millionaires? And even more won't vote for him in 2012 should he win now. In 2012 either Hillary Clinton or a Republican will be President, count on that.

Invictus; Politics IS semantics. It's the same as here in Diplomacy, their main weapon is talk, talk, talk. Sure, we'd LIKE politicians to talk straight - but guess what, it's a loser's strategy. Straight talk just feeds your opponents attack lines.

I like McCain, I really do. But McCain was defeated in 2004 even though he was a media darling for his straight-talk. He was almost eliminated this time around November, too, until he brought in a slick Republican Strategy team and they promptly curtailed his straight-talk express and told him to shut his mouth, stay on topic and stick to 'talking points'. His campaign revitalized and he beat Romney, Huckabee and Guiliani.

Look, we can get bitter about it all and resort to nasty name caling "Osama/McShame" etc. but why not accept that this is politics, crack a beer, and sit back and enjoy the game?

You want talking point just look at O'bama. If I hear "more of the same" one more time I'll vomit.

First of all McCain lost in 2000, not 2004. McCain won the nomination because there was no good conservative in the race. Huckabee and Guiliani weren't, and Romney reminded everyone of a supervillain. Ron Paul blew it with his crazy Iraq ideas, and those other two just didn't have the support. Independents voted for McCain, and he ran away with it.

I want them to stop playing the game. Politics shouldn't be semantics. MAybe I'm an idealist, but we deserve better.

I see you're pretty reasonable, but politics isn't a game, it's the future of our country. If O'bama wins we'll be going down the wrong road to statism with the nanny state or worse. But if he wins he'll be the President and I'll respect him for that. More than these irrational lefties respect Bush. The office has dignity no matter who occupies it.

But I'm more worried about midterms and finding a Halloween costume now anyway. People have said I should go in drag as Sarah Palin, but I don't have the legs.

"I see you're pretty reasonable, but politics isn't a game, it's the future of our country."

Since we are talking about USA and not Madagascar, it's more than the future of the country... it's probably the future of the planet (I would like very much this was not the case, but since USA has the power to go to war on anybody they like on the basis of fake evidences...).

"If O'bama wins we'll be going down the wrong road to statism with the nanny state or worse."

Being European, I find funny and a bit incomprehensible how US citizens could consider Senator Obama's policies as "statism". Here in Europe even states like Poland or Italy (so in the hand of radical right governments) are more "statist" than anywhere Senator Obama could lead USA to.... About the evaluation that "statism" is wrong, I can only tell you that in Europe the best quality of life is there where there are governments with strong regulation on health, pensions, education, social security etc... Just to name a few: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Spain.

"But if he wins he'll be the President and I'll respect him for that. More than these irrational lefties respect Bush."

I do not know who you refer to when you say "irrational lefties", but if you refer to the Democrats in USA and about 98% of the rest of the world population... well... yes you are right: there is a big chance you will respect Obama more than they do respect Bush.

"The office has dignity no matter who occupies it." Agree. ANY public office, including Senators: it spells "Obama", not "O'bama".

Long live the republic.

"O'bama" is a joke! Lighten up!

Obina is better than Obama!

http://www.obina.com.br

Mac; I really agree with you, as an ex-pat Canadian, I, too find it incomprehensible how US citizens consider Obama a 'Socialist', 'Communist' and the like. It's like they don't even know what the term means, really means in politics.

In fact, I don't believe they do, because these words are really political buzzwords used to criticize people and stifle debate on any attempt to better citizens lives . Very Orwell. Better public schools ? Socialist. Progressive tax system? Socialist. Universal Healthcare? Socialist. etc, etc.

What's ironic is that even corporations are now becoming aware that the US is lagging in productivity and competitiveness with the world due to these policies. The lack of Universal Healthcare means Corporations have to pick up the ridiculous Medical Insurance, which greatly hurts their competitiveness. Yet Americans here cling to the false beliefs that they still enjoy the highest standards of living in the world, the wealthiest lifestyle, the best medical system, are the most productive, all of which are demonstrably false.

If Obama is a socialist then the world is socialist.

It awes me that the Conservative party here in Canada, is still to the left of the American Democratic party. If the Conservative party even talks about a two tier healthcare system the citizens start calling them right wing nutjobs, but if the Democrats talk about universal healthcare, the people start calling them communists...

And then, Canada is even significantly to the left from Europe!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/17/MNQ013J6JV.DTL
article in the news paper says Joe was a former Nautral Law Party member and is now a Republican *my error on timing,.

Chrispminis, to back up what you're saying about Canada's Conservatives:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=188483

Starts about 1 minute in :)

In Canada, Liberal isn't a dirty word

Actual Chrispminis, as left as Canada is, I would say that economically and even socially alot of Europe is even farther to the left.

Unless you mean positionally left when looking at a map. In that, Canada is indeed to the left of Europe in most cases :P.


But seriously, I find it astonishing that in so many situations terms and labels are used without meaning, with no appreciation for the etymology of the word when discussing Politics.

Firstly 'Liberal'. Goddamn, we're all liberals, in the sense that most of the world (particularly ones where Diplo players are from) are Western Liberal Democracies. We believe in social freedom and the idea of pluralistic sociey. It is shameful that 'Liberal' is a dirty word in the US.

Also, terms like Socialism, Communism, Conservatism, Facism...
It is stupid when people use these terms to relate contemporaries with supposed historical ideaological crimes when the average citizen has very little idea what they mean.

Lets cut the crap and stop creating divisiveness where it is unwarranted and unhelpful. On a historically minded political scale, most western countries are dramatically similar on the spectrum.
We only hurt ourselves (and all that is good and pure about knowledge) when we pretend otherwise and scream these terms as insults.

FW, I agree, politically Canada lies somewhere between the US and most of Europe on the scale of left-right, I believe this is because we are quite influenced by the US. How we compare to England I can only guess. Anyone?

What I find hysterical is that most Americans believe Canada is just as far-left as Europe (my god!) when in truth, most European countries are much further left and are prosperous, free and provide social justice (Liberté, égalité, fraternité) successfully under a system most Americans would call 'Communism.' They seem here largely unable to grasp that these things can co-exist at all, and I think it leads to the delusion that America is the most prosperous, free country in the world.

I think this was hilariously illustrated on the Daily Show when the host humorously commented that Canada's 'Conservative' party was the American equivalent of 'Gay Nader fans for World Peace.'

Sorry, I meant the U.K. not England. Apologies to all my common-wealth brethren.

I've always been under the impression that Canada was further 'left' than the UK.

Politically though the UK has very strong ties to a very Socialistic Europe and as a member of the EU and the EU parliament shares many policies. In comparison to most of Europe, Britain looks very US-aligned even though I think that its probably a little more left than Canada.

Canada just 'seems' further left because it is being compared to the US rather than Europe.

To really judge it accurately I'd need to find some specific policy differences. I honestly can't think of any specific differences off the top of my head though right now.

I'd say the UK is undergoing a frightening shift towards, ironically, Orwellian total-surveillance. In this regard, they are surpassing even the United States. I'd say that puts them fairly 'right' if you count it that way.

I wouldn't consider the heavy surveillance an aspect that defines general British political leaning. Its part of the element of heavy state control within both extremes and I don't like it.

Within general economic views on health care, market regulation, education and the like I believe that the UK and Canada are actually very similar though.

I find myself in agreement with FS about the use of the terms media (and most of public opinion) do. I have never lived in the USA, but what happens to me all the time is that when I mention "socialist" or "communist" in a conversation, US citizens hearing me look at me as if I had said "paedophiles" or "fratricides"...

It seems to me that there is little if no understanding of the economical/social theories above mentioned, and of how systems that proclaims themselves "socialist" or "communist" actually implement something different that that doctrine.

This is also true the other way around, when US media appeal to Adam Smith's theories, without having actually read/understood, and thus missing to notice that current US economical and productivity systems have little to do with what Smith imagined.

My impression following US media is that people in USA have removed any semantics from the words they use in this context, and they now only use them for their emotional connotation they have. So: communist is bad, free market is good, socialist is terrible, liberalism is sublime...

I wonder how US people can do informed choices... :(

The same reasoning of above is also valid, to a lesser extend with left-right dichotomy. In this regards, I recommend this site, that also contains a "test" to find out where you locate on the "map".
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Heh, I'm in the centre of the bottom left quadrant on mac's politicalcompass site. Conveniently in between Nelson Mandela, Gandhi and the Dalai Lama. Just a single box more liberal than Gandhi actually.

Economically 5.25 left and socially 4.82 liberal.

I enjoyed going through it.

fun test

Economic Left/Right: -6.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.90

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.90

Hmm. I'm more moderate than I suppose I'd like to think.