I wonder what he'd have thought about modern day Israel:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/08/israeli-lawmaker-calls-for-genocide-of-palestinians-gets-5000-facebook-likes/

The reason that the Judiasm is still around today has nothing to do with a man. Read your Bible.

This isn't a pro-Israel thread. I'm not pro-Israel. I just happened to be born Jewish. It's a thread commemorating a man whose heroism went unrecognized for 50 years and is now eligible for a Nobel Peace Prize as word of his story spreads.

Tru - Judaism doesn't have a "bible." Just because the Bible includes a small amount of Jewish scripture doesn't mean that Jews have ever even opened one.

Bo needs to learn to read for content. Tru was saying that reading the Bible would show why the Jews won't be exterminated. Of course that assumes you believe in the whole chosen people of Jehovah bullshit.

No one does...

No one does? Bo, go to Israel and you will find more than a few people that believe they're the chosen people.

I've been to Israel twice and never on birthright, so I'll go at least one more time.

There are just as many self-righteous assholes in Judaism as there are in any other religion, but the number of people who realize that every religion says that about themselves and not a single one of them is right about it is far greater. Is that a better explanation?

You want to do a birthright? My cousins really enjoyed it when they went, but it is fundamentally propaganda.

In a way I agree, but the self-righteous assholes in Judaism (in israel) do have a lot more influence then the self-righteous assholes in christianity in england for instance.

What about the Islamists, everywhere.

I know it is, as are most religious programs in any institution. Their job is to promote one side over the other even if it means twisting information - that's basically the definition of propaganda.

The Israeli government continues to be as non-Jewish as they could possibly be and I hate that they're associated with an otherwise good religion ("good" is not a superlative adjective, don't take it out of context). I doubt they base their policy on Jewish teaching at all. Or, from a historical point of view, one might say that they govern in the name of Judaism the same way that England governed in the name of Catholicism hundreds of years ago, or the way that the Palestinian government renders its policy in the name of Islam. That's basically to say that they might believe they are but when put in perspective they clearly aren't, and that's why I strongly believe that just as Catholicism shouldn't be held accountable for the atrocities that self-claimed Catholic governments committed, Judaism should not be held accountable for what Israel is doing, and Islam should not be held accountable for what the Palestinians are doing or what sharia nations do.

Birthright is disgusting. American should set up a 'birthright' to Wounded Knee. Because that isn't offensive at all.

Birthright is an incredible opportunity that most Jewish students in the US would never have otherwise.

And we should only care about opportunities for American Jewish students. The Palestinians who are forced to live under Israel's boot to make 'birthright' possible are irrelevant.

Putin is irrelevant

Israel promotes travel to their country for American Jews. Big deal. You're so bent on making Israel look bad that you fail to realize that birthright brings money into the country and they wouldn't do it otherwise.

I leave for a few months and Putin33 finds sympathy for Palestinians? Has the party line changed?

Putin also left for a little while, and has seemed to have learnt something in the meantime. Stranger things have happened, for sure.

I never figured out how to search past forum posts, but someone who does know should look for where he argued that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are legal under international law. Strange how someone who once defended that policy now refers to Palestinians as living "under Israel's boot."

Just so there's no confusion, I support a two-state solution following the 1948/1967 lines (pick you term, it doesn't matter) with mutually agreed border swaps along the line which nevertheless maintains a viable, continuous area of the West Bank for a Palestinian state to have sovereignty over. Ideally Jerusalem should be internationalized. In the likely event that does not happen I think Israel ought to keep the whole city, with guarantees for Muslim holy sites and local autonomy as has been proposed in various peace offers. After all, they won the wars.

Since when has winning wars decided who's right? War doesn't decide who's right, only who's left.

Who said anything about right? I just mean that, having beaten the Arabs in two wars (not including the war of independence), Israel should not have to go back to the border it had beforehand. On the international plane, might ultimately makes right, despite noble efforts to the contrary.

Also, this transfer of land will only be legitimate after a treaty is signed. As of now, Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is illegal.

@bo: the Bible contains Jewish scripture including the Law and the Prophets. It also includes what we deem as the New Testament.

If you're Jewish--and genuinely so, as in one by practice and not just one by birth, then I'd assume you'd agree that Israel is a nation by divine designation, divine blessing and divine protection.

Both the Old Testament (Jewish Scripture) and the New Testament (Christian Scripture) agree on this matter and any Jew that denies God is the sole reason for Israel remaining a country today is ridiculous and I'd say he's as Jewish as any Gentile.

"Both the Old Testament (Jewish Scripture) and the New Testament (Christian Scripture) agree on this matter and any Jew that denies God is the sole reason for Israel remaining a country today is ridiculous and I'd say he's as Jewish as any Gentile."

heh, ridiculous, interesting adjective to use in a post such as this.

At the same time, bo is wrong, there are plenty of Jews who believe they are the chosen people and believe that the torah is the word of God. The comment that Judaism doesn't have a "bible" is downright puzzling. Just because you are a cultural Jew and don't associate with religious jews doesn't mean that there are not religious jews. You don't get to just make up things...

"
I leave for a few months and Putin33 finds sympathy for Palestinians? Has the party line changed?"

When the Syrian war broke out Putin began blaming Israel for supporting Jihadis, I believe that is when the change of heart occurred.

Putin is irrelevant.

Other countries have had a long standing tradition of building settlements on land captured from the natives. Pick any place in North and/or South America that has a city from European settlers that forced out the natives. The United States continued the policy after they became independent country pushing west and seizing Indian lands or buying it from European countries. Don't forget Hong Kong and Macao were taken from China with "leases."

India and Pakistan are still in a cold war over Kashmir after the Hindus and Muslims had to resettle when they were given their independence from Great Britain. They fought over their border for years.

North Vietnam took over South Vietnam after the US pulled out and put South Vietnamese in prison camps. Fleeing refugees were usually returned to Vietnam if caught by the Chinese and other countries.


"If you're Jewish--and genuinely so, as in one by practice and not just one by birth, then I'd assume you'd agree that Israel is a nation by divine designation, divine blessing and divine protection."

Some orthodox Jews believe that Israel shouldn't exist until the Messiah comes and were against its creation.

"When the Syrian war broke out Putin began blaming Israel for supporting Jihadis, I believe that is when the change of heart occurred."

Well, I've only been gone since February or so, so it's a more recent change than that.

Also, if that's what he believes, it's factually untrue. Israel is basically neutral in the war. Support for jihadis came from the Gulf, or did before IS got a billion dollars in gold from Mosul. Support for the secular rebels (which, while irrelevant to the fighting now, still miraculously exist in certain areas) has come from the West, when it's come at all. Israel has just been sitting there happily watching Assad and Hezbollah bleed themselves white fighting against Islamists who would be just as hostile to Israel.

I can only assume it's another one of his slant lies (cf. slant rhyme), where lack of support for Assad means support for IS and the like.

"Other countries have had a long standing tradition of building settlements on land captured from the natives."

Yeah, but international law prohibits that action these days. Why is this hard for people to grasp?

@Tru ... by your definition, a large number of Reform Jews and Conservative Jews that I know aren't 'real Jews,' which is basically the viewpoint that the last 80 years in westernized Judaism have fought against. I don't know what sect you call yourself or whether you even identify as Jewish, but the "believe it because it's in scripture" view is dying out because it's unreasonable and impossible in modern society. We're allowed to use our brains, and my brain suggests to me that divine right has nothing to do with the creation of the state of Israel.

Israel is an issue I've struggled with. I know Invictus, being correct and certain about all things, and being able to predict the future like Nostradamus, has never struggled with anything. Neither has Santa.

"Also, if that's what he believes, it's factually untrue. Israel is basically neutral in the war. "

You clearly haven't been paying attention. Rebels are treated in Israeli hospitals and Israel has engaged in repeating bombing of Syria to help them. Israel's support for the Syrian rebels is well-documented and its denunciations of Assad have been loud and vigorous.

"Israel has just been sitting there happily watching Assad and Hezbollah bleed themselves white fighting against Islamists who would be just as hostile to Israel.
"

Nobody believes that. Sunni extremists don't care about Israel, they never have. Saudi Arabia and their ilk get along with Israel just fine. They're more concerned with killing their fellow Muslims. The nearby enemy is more important than the faraway enemy, as Zawahiri says.

"I can only assume it's another one of his slant lies (cf. slant rhyme), where lack of support for Assad means support for IS and the like."

Or you just don't know what you're talking about.

@bo: that's the saddest statement I've heard. If the belief that the Hebrew Scriptures is errant because of modern viewpoints, then I would suggest that Jews really do not know Scripture. In it, it clearly states that the heart is deceitful above all else. It also states very plainly that God does not change like the shifting shadows, so if we have to change our views to fit "modern viewpoints" then either the Scripture is in error or we are in error, and I can say with a very clear conscious that may God be true and every man a liar.

I would also question a faith that fails to believe that God is the sustainer of all things and that by his hand men are raised up and brought low. If your God isn't the sustainer of this whole world, then you and I certainly don't have the same God.

For me, this conversation ended awhile ago, so I don't even remember what we were originally discussing, but we clearly don't have "the same God" - I don't "have" a god at all (because apparently you can possess a god, because simply believing in one that encompasses the entire world isn't enough for people, the god you believe in must be *yours*), so clearly, no, we don't have the same god. I've never pretended to believe in any higher power. I see the sun as the work of hydrogen and helium working together according to the laws of physics, the nighttime stars as age-old rays of visible light penetrating the atmosphere and everything polluting it, and every tree and blade of grass alive as the work of a seed, of something else, potentially just a few inches away from me or potentially miles upon miles away, in another state or country or wherever. Every living being is the product of other living beings of the past. I don't see these things as miracles of a god but as simple facts of living on a habitable planet - facts I appreciate and celebrate no less than you do even without a god.

You're welcome to be religious. I won't attempt to take that from you, and if I do, call me out on it. You're also welcome to question the Jewish faith as a whole, though that's incredibly misguided. There are so many devout Jews that take the word of Torah and Tanach among other scriptures to be the word of law, so many that take it to be a guiding power in their lives, so many that believe every story written no matter how fantastical they are.

The Jewish faith isn't lacking; it's changing, just as other religions are. There's no reason to believe that it's dying, and people that say that ought to realize that religion is a point of pride. Jews around the world identify with one another, just as people in other religions do, and provide each other a sort of social safe haven. The word of scripture doesn't have to be taken so seriously and to the letter for that to continue. If you don't see it that way, then don't live your life that way, but it's unreasonable to say that people who choose to practice their religion are somehow less faithful. Let your god decide that down the road.

The Jewish faith isn't changing, people are changing what they believe about it. That's where you begin to add labels to Judaism beyond "Jewish" such as 'humanistic', 'reformist' etc. The core of Judaism is unchanging. When people decide that they disagree with something strongly, they simply change their title and say it's still Judaism. A faith becomes denominational. It doesn't change the fact that there's still only one truth and the rest are falsehoods.

As a Christian, I wholly support Judaism, although Christians believe that Jews are simply missing the key core of what it was meant to be as the pointer to Christ.

I don't want you to take me as proselytizing or attacking, merely pointing out an issue that you really ought to contend with, and that's how you view God. If you see God as so disconnected from humanity that He plays no role in what occurs on Earth, then you really ought to say that you're merely agnostic, as opposed to any religion that has a god as its central point.

Another point, it's silly so state that by using the phrase "my God", that I'm possessing a god in terms of ownership. The connection is that God is indeed connected to humanity. It's the same type of speech as saying "my father". I no more possess my parents as I do my God. Rather, I'm an extension of him in a relationship.

the jewish faith is constantly changing, as it has from the beginning.

The rest are "falsehoods"? Do you follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ himself? Did you meet him? Does he reside in your basement? Your Christianity is *not* the same as his, so yours is a "falsehood"...? - no, it's not. Of course it's not. Yours is completely real. Your Christianity is just as real as anyone else's be it of any denomination. That's a ridiculous assertion.

If it makes you happier to call me atheist, do so. The Judaism I follow is more of an ideology than a religion. It's a set of ideas that I live by, not because I feel compelled to by any higher power. I really don't know how to explain it to someone that completely rejects the thought that religion can play such a minor role in life, so if you don't follow, then don't live this way, but you are proselytizing; instead of explaining your position and leaving it be, you're suggesting that a large group of Jewish people are wrong and not faithful enough. You're trying to change my mind and yet you're trying to tell me you aren't "proselytizing" - bullshit.

To the other point -

"It's the same type of speech as saying "my father"."

No, it's nothing close. When you refer to someone as your father, he is *your* father. He may be the father of a couple of other people, but it's very possessive, and he's very much yours and no one else's when spoken of that way. By saying you "have" a god or saying things like "my" god, you're trying to possess a god instead of simply believing that the god is there, just as when you say you have something or that something is yours, you are expressing possession.

I wouldn't expect someone that states they have no god and that religion plays a minor role in their life to understand the relationship between God and His elect. I will leave this conversation saying that you know little about Christianity and that my views come from that point. It's not worth the argument that is going into it at this point.

I'm glad you've finally decided to reiterate the point I've been making to you for the last week and claim it as your own. If it'll get you to stop making stupid assertions and generalizations about millions of people around the world, you're welcome to take the credit.

Pretty sure saying "my God" is not an act of possession. It could even be the other way around. If a dog (example) were to say "my owner" he would not own the owner. You can say that it is your country, but that does not mean you own that country.

My employer doesn't mean I own him. Quite the opposite.