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steephie22 (182 D(S))
07 Aug 13 UTC
The mind can change hell in heaven (?)
True or false? I'd like a few unbiased (as in not biased by me) opinions before I give mine.
45 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
06 Aug 13 UTC
ghost ratings August
Who has them? Upload! :D
3 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
German Opening Strategies: Update for Online Play

PREFACE: I am really a rather rotten player. I write this not because I enjoy any good measure of skill at the game of Diplomacy, but rather because I enjoy writing.
Reprinting rights are offered in exchange for attribution. Glory and praise to the Most High God. Please feel free to respond and critique below.
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
09 Aug 13 UTC
Got a note from a friend of mine tonight. The last time I'd played him at Diplomacy, I'd made a bluff promising a link to an article I'd written about German opening strategies. I tend to do this a lot at work. Technically, I am published in my field, so when I'm trying to convince people that I know more than I actually do, I'll usually reference an article I've written for some trade journal or other.
Nobody actually reads my articles, so people are usually fooled by this. After all, if someone has written an article on something they *must* know what they're talking about, right?
Nonetheless, the lie was not so much a lie as a half-truth. I had, after all intended to write an article about German opening strategy. The reason for this is that I've long wanted to challenge the assumption that if Germany gets three new build by the end of 1901, that they're rapidly going to balloon out of everyone ele's control. I've seen Turkey accomplish the same thing (a far greater threat) and no one worries. Why then all of the panic when Germany moves in position (in Spring 1901) to capture three neutral centers?
My problem comes when I'm trying to negotiate with my neighbors. I'm trying to convince Germany's neighbors to do something in our mutual interest, and in the mean time they don't want to cooperate because they're freaking out over the whole Germany thing.
If I could do something to circulate the idea that it's not really such a big deal for Germany to get three builds in 1901, then people will be easier to deal with. I think that the Germanophobia stems from several factors. One is certainly negative past experience. Everyone who has played more than a dozen games will certainly be able to recall a time when Germany grew like a cancer, sweeping through the center of the board to gobble eighteen centers in a rampage that could not be stopped, even by a five nation coalition. Statisticians will point out a correlation between Germany getting three builds in 1901 and an early German victory. But isn't this irrational? While Germany may grow more quickly than some countries (like Italy) at the beginning, they are the more easily contained than other countries. With so many neighbors, practically anyone in the game (save Turkey) can move to contain Germany if he begins to get out of line. England will be in a good organic position to strike in the North Sea, and Russia will enjoy a similar benefit of it's position in Sweden.
The next point that surprises me, is that so many of the established masters of the game fear to get three builds in 1901. They feel that if they gain three centers, this will stir up jealousy amongst the other players (see above) and practically invite a multi-party attack. To this, I counter that you are better off with this happening, if it is going to happen. You find out who your friends are. Your friends will be glad that you are strong enough to help them, and I believe (but can't prove) that anyone who attacks you for gaining three centers, would probably have attacked you soon anyway. What better way to answer them than with a six-unit defensive force in 1902? And this needn't cause conflict. Germany can well capture three centers that the remaining powers don't necessarily want anyways.
Really, I could go further. I would say not only is a six-unit Germany not a serious threat to it's neighbors (except Russia), but that Germany's natural rate of expansion is to get three builds at the end of 1901. Germany has a problem at the end of 1901 bigger than any other country, except perhaps for Italy. After the Lowlands have been divied up, Germany has no easy route for expansion. The most ideal target will be to capture Sweden and then make peace with Russia. It is not in Russia's best interest to retaliate. Mother Russia lost a center that she didn't really want, while Germany neatly neutralized a threat.
It is here that I will contradict conventional German opening strategy: Try to avoid letting France capture Belgium, but absolutely do not under any circumstances allow England to convoy an army into either of Belgium or Holland. If it becomes necessary to allow England to capture one of the Lowlands in 1901, allow him to capture Denmark. By giving Denmark to England, you allow England to make what I'll call an "effective capture" rather than an "ineffective capture" (see appendix).
If all goes as planned in 1901, you gain three centers. The consequence of that is that even if everything goes as planned in 1902, you only gain one additional center. And that conquest itself comes with a high price - you will have gained an enemy in the taking of your seventh center (with whomever is your victim), while others (Russia, for example) can gain a seventh center potentially without raising anyone's ire. As you can see, Germany builds easily in the first year, but then will almost certainly build slowly in the following two years. People needn't worry if Germany starts the game with a hat trick (three builds). For poor Germany, everything is uphill from there.
My final point along those lines - it can be in almost everyone's interest for Germany to get three builds. Turkey, most of all, would rather a strong Germany than a strong England (for example). England, whose principle target is Russia, would rather appease Germany than provoke him. France, whose principle target is England, must feel the same. Italy would rather Germany grab any spare centers than France. Austria is praying for Germany to have a good opening, and Russia probably stands to gain the least from a strong German opening, but can spin this to her advantage provided that she can at least gain something in return, for example an open German declaration of war against England.
So if you accept those tenets, that Germany must protect it's coast, that Germany should remain neutral as long as possible, and that Germany's ideal first conquest is Sweden, then Spring 1901 sees German moves to Holland, Ruhr and Kiel. A navy should be built in Kiel for the conquest of Sweden, however you can manage it.
****************************************************
APPENDIX: EFFECTIVE CAPTURES
Few players seem to pay much attention to the concept of "effective captures," which I bring up to contrast with ineffective captures. For our purposes, we'll define an effective capture as a city which is captured such that the conqueror is then free to immediately (after the Fall season) deploy the conquering unit in another front. This happens if the conquered city has no foreign units within striking range.
An ineffective capture is a city conquered that has one or more foreign units within striking range. This sort of capture is termed ineffective for the reason that the conquering power is then forced to leave the unit to occupy the freshly gained city. In some cases, for example when a city is bordered by multiple foreign units, one might feel compelled not only to keep the city garrisoned, but also to deploy a unit to a neighboring province for defensive support. In such cases one is facing a net strategic loss of units from the front lines.
This consideration has a couple of implications. For strategic purposes, effective captures are better on or near borders shared with a power with whom one ideally would prefer to be at peace. Effective captures have the benefit of producing a DMZ.
Ineffective captures should often be avoided since they produce zero net gain of units deployable to the front line, with the possible exception of borders shared with powers against whom one would prefer to begin a troop buildup.
One of the biggest mistakes that I see newer players make, is that they feel that they need to gain centers as quickly as possible. This is not true. A better strategy is to shoot for defensible growth, while building a solid reputation, ingratiating one's neighbors and developing interesting offensive potentials.
tendmote (100 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
¡¡¡Holy smokes bro, you called out """"the established masters of the game"""??¡!?!¿¿!! You said they """""fear"""""?¡!?!¿¿!
Gen. Lee (7588 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
I would much rather have one solid ally in 1901 than 3 builds with Germany. Honestly 3 builds kind of causes me trouble. If I build 2 more fleets, a good English player is basically forced to attack you (so you better have Russia on your side). If you build 2 more armies, where do they go? An attack on Russia is foolish early on, while gaining entry to France is a biatch. I prefer to use Belgium and Sweden as a bargaining chip to try and gain that trusted ally.

Basically I hate playing Germany.
Octavious (2701 D)
09 Aug 13 UTC
We have established masters of the game?

I personally think strategy is over-rated. When in doubt, wing it. To quote from Confucius "The butterfly that knows not where he flies is hardest to catch"
orathaic (1009 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
Yeah, the masters have a gold star after their names, you can see them posting on the forums from time to time...
StackelbergFollower (1463 D(G))
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
Gen Lee, I disagree that attacking Russia early is foolish as Germany. It works really well if (a) there is a WT or (b) Italy is attacking France or (c) France and England are fighting and Austria opens strong and there is no jugg. Situations like that definitely arise from time to time.
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
Yeah, Gen. Lee, I don't know about that. One of the classic German openings is to bounce Sweden in 1901, build a second fleet, and take it in 1902 while also moving on Warsaw, assuming you have a friendly France. I'd argue that Russia is a logical early game target for Germany.
Gen. Lee (7588 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
In general, playing a WT as Germany is stupid. Unless England is a noob it will be very hard to solo. The only time I will block sweden is when I have an E/G. Otherwise I think it is foolish. Of course there are some situations where it could make sense to hit Russia early, but im talking generally and assuming decent competition. Why break down the east and help it resolve quicker than you can resolve your own west. Again, not good for solo chances.
StackelbergFollower (1463 D(G))
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
I think a lot of the time, a WT will fail/fall apart fairly early on for factors independent of Germany, which tends to benefit Germany IMO. Basically, as long as moving against Russia doesn't put France and England both in a position where they benefit from and are able to take you out as Germany, going against Russia early on can make sense.

I'd also argue that Russia usually falls faster than either England or France, so if you have any other factors slowing down England and France, then you could be in good shape. I got one (fairly lucky) solo as Germany out of this opening, and it was successful because France attacked England in 1901, and Austria was loyal to me for most of the game. I say lucky because it involved successfully stabbing a 9-center France when I was on 10 and I only got to 18 because of a correct guess on the last move.
You can attack Russia early just fine and get three builds. Assuming you're successful in triggering Anglo-French conflict (you have to be, otherwise you die, quickly), it's not hard to get them to allow you to have Belgium. Then you build F Kie / A Mun / A Ber and storm Warsaw and Sweden.

The problem most people get when they go for Belgium is that they don't do their homework/due diligence/etc. in making sure England and France are at one another's throats. England and France patch things up unexpectedly early, or simply never fight at all.

This is especially true with the Dutch opening (F Kie -> Hol). The advice given is that you shouldn't use it because E & F won't tolerate a 6-center Germany in 1902. That's not true. They won't tolerate a 6-center Germany in 1902 _that they didn't consent to allowing._ Opening with the Dutch opening signals that you're going for Belgium and screw anyone who objects. A lot of the online literature unfortunately confuses that for going for Belgium, period. You can take Belgium -- just make sure England and France dislike each other enough that they're okay with it.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
I like the idea of putting england into denmark... actually i'd love to play england and take denmark+norway in 1901, sweden in 1902, and then have three centers to use against russia in the north, while using three home centers against france (with a friendly german)

Alas germany seems to dislike giving up denmark (even if it means getting bel... but england's not in much of a position to give bel in 1901. hmm)
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
I've always viewed Belgium as a better short-term bargaining chip with E/F against the other, especially because Germany has a huge say in who can take it and hold it, and even more especially if you can take Holland in S1901 and make a choice in the fall.

Of course, I'm a proponent of letting France into Bel in 1901, getting him to build two fleets, and just taking it right back in 1902. Bel is an interesting case though because it's very hard for any of E/F/G to take it and hold it early on.
Yonni (136 D(S))
09 Aug 13 UTC
Agreed. Which is why giving up Denmark for Belgium in 1901 is quite scary. Add to the fact that France has a good chance of bouncing you if there's no English support, England could land an army in Denmark, and you guarantee a Russian Sweden, you need very specific conditions for it to be worth a shot.
Isn't the issue with denmark that an english fleet in the Baltic is pretty crippling to Germany?
Yonni (136 D(S))
10 Aug 13 UTC
I imagine that a German fleet would be in the Baltic if he chooses to give up on Denmark.
SunRa (1049 D)
10 Aug 13 UTC
If i look to the games so far i played here ( gunboats mostly) germany is by far the best country. Verry different from elsewhere i played, has à lot to do with f lon- eng and f bre-eng in 01 moves that i never seen used this much before.
Anyway.
F kie-den-ska
Ber-kie-den
Mun-ruh-hol
Is the one i use most. Bouncing russia in swe is just crappy if you dont have à good reason ( war-sil, or 3 russian builds likly)

Also english yor-den 01 is cool sometimes but not à fleet, nonono.
Gen. Lee (7588 D(B))
10 Aug 13 UTC
I can't tell you the last time I've seen the channel bounce. But I've also never seen the opening you suggested. ;-)
SunRa (1049 D)
10 Aug 13 UTC
Try it!
Russia: hey swe for nwy? We take nth together with f kie-hel, no fighting over swe yes!
England: hey swe to me ska-swe, kie-bal, den s ska-swe, then in fall you Go for stp/fin and i c den-lvn and build sexxy à mun à ber (if get bel to)


18 replies
Emac (0 DX)
09 Aug 13 UTC
Drinking Age
What is the drinking age in your society?
This is the most illogical part of America. An 18-year old has the competence to vote for President but not to drink a beer.
45 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+2)
A PSA
To: everyone
Hit the fucking ready button.

From: everyone
9 replies
Open
Melko (350 D)
09 Aug 13 UTC
quick question
Hi, I used to play many many years ago and now I am back to webdiplomacy. Just a quick question, how many phases do you need to miss for the game to kick you out?

Apologies if this question had been asked before but I couldnt find it in FAQs.
3 replies
Open
hecks (164 D)
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
Comment Policy
My thoughts to follow:
135 replies
Open
Orka (785 D)
09 Aug 13 UTC
need people
Join a 500 bet anonymous winner take all. Game name 500 on the table
2 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
08 Aug 13 UTC
hey krellin!!!!
16 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
09 Aug 13 UTC
(+2)
so I create one new thread to support a friend...
More inside.
23 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
07 Aug 13 UTC
Who's the top?
krellin or Sbyvl?
40 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
how to make a website like this one
Please comment
42 replies
Open
mendax (321 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
(+4)
Dear Krellin, who do you hate?
I'd like to start a game with some cool lefties/decent people, and figured the quickest way to work out who to invite was to ask you who you hated most. At the moment I'm thinking a game with Tolstoy, Major Mitchell, Thucy, Cachimbo, Hecks and Bo-sox would be fun. Did I miss anyone?
66 replies
Open
Sbyvl36 (439 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
(+2)
Who's the bottom?
klein or YellowJacket?
67 replies
Open
Sephiroth (100 D)
08 Aug 13 UTC
Ask about rule of Dilomacy Game
I'm playing A Dilomacy Game in a Forum. Russia Order: Vienna move to Tyrolia. Italian Order: Tyrolia move Trieste, Venezia Hold. Austria Order: Triest support move to Venezia from Apulia. Ottoman Order: Apullia move to Venezia

12 replies
Open
semck83 (229 D(B))
27 Jul 13 UTC
(+1)
The Libertarian Rift
It is often claimed that divisions in the GOP run clearly along statist/libertarian lines, but this is frequently unclear in practice, as there are a good many other divisions and alignments as well (as in the Democratic Party). Here is a particularly clean example of the former, however.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/354552/nsa-fight-jonathan-strong
46 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
08 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
The next debate challenge
this is not a hey krellin thread.
2 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
08 Aug 13 UTC
Hey krellin!
I'm here for you my friend!
0 replies
Open
erik8asandwich (298 D)
05 Aug 13 UTC
Replacement for Summer League Games
Hi all. I am looking for someone who would be willing to replace one of the seven members in our Summer League. She abruptly decided to give up Diplomacy and her departure has halted our league play.

If you are interested in replacing someone who is in a great position in the League message me and I can send you more information. Thanks.
8 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
08 Aug 13 UTC
Time Added to Games
I've added 4 hours to all games and reset the processing. Please let me know asap if you notice a problem with your game.
3 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
ADVERTISE YOUR VIEWS ON KRELLIN HERE
Utilize this thread by posting your views about Krellin, homosexual slurs directed against him, and any similar messages here and only here.
10 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Aug 13 UTC
(+13)
Who the fuck +1s krellin's inane troll threads?
Identify yourself. It's one person who does it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
379 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
08 Aug 13 UTC
Hey Krellin
Could you warn me whenever you read a good argument against you in one of the many threads? I was thinking we might have to recruit some secretaries who can filter out arguments like Kafkatraps, complete fiction, partial fiction, anything including the word nigger, so we can focus on the arguments that can be considered worthy of your time. Post interest in becoming secretary in this thread and I'll get you a form.
2 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
How DARE Soldiers Fighting Religious Fanatics Not Be Religious?!
http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-problem-atheists-065000534.html
I find that ironic in the US Military's case (for the above-stated reason)...but it's an issue that crops up every now and again, people thinking that a lack of religious belief MUST mean you're "at risk," or "depressed" or a danger to yourself or others...how about we're not convinced by the "evidence" for God and think that Religion kills (and encourages killing at that) and leave us be?
23 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
07 Aug 13 UTC
(+1)
Fear of Clowns (Lighthearted)
http://www.npr.org/2013/08/06/209494071/fear-of-clowns-yes-its-real

* Hey folks...sorry for the thread bombing we have **all** been doing...so here is a little something lighthearted to discuss I heard on NPR yesterday.
* Are you afraid of clowns? Grown men in makeup doing socially unacceptable things, often to children? (Like touching, squirting them with water, etc. while hiding behind a mask?) Or are they innocuous fun?
18 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
06 Aug 13 UTC
(+4)
Kafkatrapping - Liberal Arguments Explained
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

Awesome read -- explains perfectly how Liberals argue. You will see these techniques repeated *continuously* around here.
58 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
07 Aug 13 UTC
(+9)
I'm going to start calling other white people "cracker."
Gotta take it back.
23 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
07 Aug 13 UTC
enjoy to live krellin here and only here
live krellin go gogog
5 replies
Open
LakersFan (899 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
Why Republicans Rock
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/06/1229244/-Rick-Perry-forgets-where-he-is
13 replies
Open
rojimy1123 (597 D)
07 Aug 13 UTC
295 versus Turnpike
I'll be headed to New Jersey in a few weeks and was hoping to get some insight on this. Is there any benefit to taking I-295 to the I-195 junction instead of paying the tolls on the NJ Turnpike (northbound from Delaware)?
5 replies
Open
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