krellin, stop being a pussy

Not much happened during the night here. I do not see the case against Squigs as particularly strong, I do have concerns about him, but not strong enough to warrant a Day 1 lynch.

So far I would be happy to vote for any of the lurkers,which is to say anyone from meme to ILN on maniac's list or Chaqa who has yet to post the promised reads. So far, all lurkers are scum leans as far as I am concerned since town actively tries to find out scum and lurking never helps town. Also, since the level of activity has been low from so many people I think that the lizards and mutants can try to blend in among the lurking crowdy more easily.

Among the active posters I have a lingering feeling that krellin may actually be town and I find it odd because I usually read him as scum. I am inclined to see bo and Maniac as possible town, but have a strong null read on uclabb and Squigs so far. Really not much to go on. Post people! I want to be able to have information to make one of my creative writing projects and you guys are giving me nothing.

As a sidenote, I will be spending the day at the US Embassy as I am in the middle of my student visa application process. I will obviously have no access to the internet whatsoever until I am out and in my country the waiting lines can be reeeaaaaally long. I expect to be back before the deadline, but since there is no guarantee I will ##VOTE ILN. Basically because he has delivered the most incomprehensible comments from the group of lurkers I mentioned above and because I feel he has had no motivation to read the thread in detail. This could just be laziness, but I think it could also mean that he is scum and does not need to read anything to try and find information because he already has that information.

Hopefully I will be back in time to check late day activity and ILN will have redeemed himself by making detailed analyses of everyone here.

Thanks for the remarks, guak. You may be right about Squigs. I just know that when I was reading (quite carefully) the first couple pages, I was really struck by how quickly he ramped up the defensiveness. It's a small thing, but it has sat badly with me ever since. Since he's done at least one more scummy thing, and arguably one and a half, he still seems the best bet at the moment.

Guak, remember last time I tried to actively post and inspired a "creative writing project"? :)

@y2k: I know I know, Squigs was my victim on M3, but hey sometimes I can build a good case against actual scum, like krellin on M2 and YJ on M3. Sadly, my case on YJ was mostly ignored while the one on Squigs was more convincing that time around, but we still managed to win. My creative writing projects may be really off usually, but not having content to build one is a worse danger than any wild story I can build from scraps.

I will be leaving in half an hour, so I will still be around to address any concerns until then.

@ Krellin - nothing to do with you being out of step with everyone else - I've called you out on one thing and various other people have agreed.

Very simple question (reiterated again and again) - if we don't lynch someone today how does the town get ANY information? Why on earth would we vote to lynch anyone at all ever based on your argument?

Please just answer this and don't duck. If your not that interested in playing then become a mod kill rather than a replacement allowing town not to waste a kill.

Maniac, if your tag voting suggestion wasn't to be taken seriously, why did you say it? You should know by now that it's nearly impossible in this game to discern sarcasm from a real suggestion. I'm pretty tired of excusing things as jokes, and if anyone else is thinking about making a "joke" you need to reconsider. Sorry, but unless you can actually prove to me that "tag voting" wasn't a scheme you were thinking about pushing later on, that's gonna stick.

Fortunately, Maniac, I watched you play last game and I know you slip a lot, as do I. I don't think you're trying to play dishonestly but you've just got to watch what you say. Hopefully that makes sense.

@ghug ... I agree with you that this game's been quiet, but if you think back to last game, there were three big talkers at the end. The three of you that lasted until the final day were all very vocal, and right now, you just returned and semck has only been able to make a couple of posts until this morning. There are others that are lurking too, but once they come around, I think we'll see more talking which means more opportunities for slips, and I know you make a living on those. If not, we can think about getting rid of the lurkers and see where that leaves us.

Otherwise, I get the impression that the mafia are being incredibly careful early on, trying to reveal as little as possible, and the argument for no lynch holds up with that line of thinking, so it's pretty suspicious to me. Still, I think krellin is reacting instinctively to the claims against him, which is to say to curl up in a ball and take what's coming - that's what he does, and it reflects that he might be town. If he's mafia, he's doing an excellent job acting like himself, and while there's some evidence against him I don't think I can cast a vote for him yet. Basically I agree with semck's post at the top of the page.

I'm preparing a little bit more but I'll post this first, so more in a few.

guak, I would appreciate further thoughts on Squigs and krellin if you have them. They're the two people I'm most likely to vote for, and I respect your opinions after last game. I take it you don't find my Squigs case too strong, and I certainly don't want to foment a mislynch. But it seems strong to me, or at least, stronger than anything else. So if there are any more details or thoughts to give that seem relevant, please share them.

Is case against Squigs basically based on him being defensive? Cos I think I may have missed that... he just seemed to be same as last game as me.

Bo Sox - lighten up a little, game needs to be slightly fun and without any jokes it might get a bit intense. That said Maniac will always be on the crazy side, I'm beginning to think that name isn't a co-incidence...

Agreed, pj, but jokes that come in the form of fake suggestions or fake reads and whatnot are just confusing and not helpful at all.

Y2k, can you explain your stance on semck? You voted for him on the last page but didn't really give a ton, and then you said you crossposted with him - are you unvoting after what you read, and if not can you elaborate?

PJ, I guess I thought he was *too* defensive. He seemed to take uclabb's questions as an attempt to build a very serious case, immediately. That struck me as a little paranoid.

But that's not the whole case. He has also been interested, seemingly, in who the town power roles are. That may just have been a slip, of course.

And then he expressed fears about what people would think of him. He *did* do that last game, so while it's a mafia move, it may just be Squigs.

Nevertheless, all three in conjunction are a stronger case, I think, than I see against anybody else. If krellin weren't krellin, I might think the case there was stronger, but in the event, it seems in line with how he acts anyway.

First off, i'm just fking around and having fun with the "*human* instincts" part lol :)

Okay, so:
I take back my suspicion for WD, it was pretty dumb, but his vote against chaqa was pretty scummy in my book. Perhaps chaqa after all deserves the vote for drawing so much attention to himself, WD just took action.

Now, about Krellin
Either he is a genuine human that is concerned about losing a townie on the first day,
OR
A scum that's trying to minimize the chances of a reptile lynching on the first day

I can't be sure about him, and so i take back my vote, but my suspicion remains, here are my original reasons.
(how da fuq do i do this? ## cancel vote? lol)

He seems a bit too passive aggressive, and too keen on getting his way

"and a yes vote will tell you for certain who the first dead townie is. Yippee."

Don't know about you, but sarcasm is a powerful tool, and usually used to hide insecurities, I see krellin's use of it as trying to make himself concerned about the townies (when in fact he might be a scum, and the opposite)

"Day 1 lynching serves far less purpose than the blood thirsty clowns around here will assert."

Funny how the cold blooded, blood thirsty reptiles accuse us of being blood thirsty. He's trying to pass off anyone pro first day lynching (which is a great chance for the town to get rid of a scum) as a blood thirsty clown, a scummy move.

Now, that was my first reaction, but upon further reading I kind of changed my mind :3
Knowing how krellin acts on the forum when he gets mad, there are two options here:

He's mad because he's a reptile about to be lynched
or
He's mad because he's a human *falsely accused*, and about to be lynched

Nothing makes you more pissed off than being innocent but being seen as guilty. Being guilty though and accused of being guilty doesn't cause so much anger, sort of a "heh, i had it coming" thing.

So until further notice, I take back my vote.

“Very simple question (reiterated again and again) - if we don't lynch someone today how does the town get ANY information? Why on earth would we vote to lynch anyone at all ever based on your argument?”

PJ – you want to know how we get information about people without actually lynching an innocent townie? We **already** have info, dufus! After all, half of you apparently think you know enough about me to lynch me! So we DO have information, under the threat of voting…and now I suggest you all pull your vote last minute and save a townie…

##VOTE Maniac - driver fo the bandwagon. Bloodthirsty clown.

@Krellin - nice of you to come back ;-)

Until we have an actual lynch we do NOT have actual information. We have theories, we have suggestions, accusations, defences. All of it is completely unsupportable as we have no evidence either way.

As per ILN's comments - you could be acting mad because you're a reptile, or you could actually be mad because your pissed off at being falsely accused. Either way, we'll never know until you flip town or scum.

That said - I don't want to be accused of tunnelling on you so I want to go back and take a look at Squigs as maybe I've missed something there.

@ Y2k - did you respond somewhere to our queries about why you were also supporting a non-lynch or has that been missed?

"Bloodthirsty clown" - so many nightmares wrapped up in that one.

"Until we have an actual lynch we do NOT have actual information. We have theories, we have suggestions, accusations, defences. All of it is completely unsupportable as we have no evidence either way.
"
YES That HAS BEEN MY *ENTIRE* contention - thus the absolute *certainty* with which certain people make pronouncements rubs me the wrong way - both the pronouncements of who *must* be scummy, as well as the pronouncements of how people *MUST* behave (the whole WIFOM discussion). I assure you, I will not behave as you require me, or how any psychology book says I should -- and it is doubtful if you will either.

THUS my entire thrust in this opening day has been to get the wanna-be-psychics off their high horse and stop acting so god-damned self-assured on Day **1** when we don't know a damned thing!

krellin, nobody thinks we do know a lot. What they think is that you can tell a lot later from VOTING PATTERNS. There are no voting patterns if there's no vote. If there's no vote, all you have is blether the whole way through, and you have to pin everything on people's psychic claims.

You're creating the very problem you're complaining about.

Bo - I take your point and actually I didn't really think you were lying earlier on, just wanted to gauge a bit of reaction.

Krellin ducks out of doing anything constructive yet again. I have him as either reptilian or a govt official for sulkiness who I really wouldn't miss if a stray bullet ended up going his way.

Y2 has gone up the reptilian rankings. Maybe he should have been better advised to keep quiet. First he says this about me...

"5. Maniac: I have a gut suspicion there's something lacking from his posts. He seems to be actively discussing how we should go after scum and lurkers without contributing much of his own specific reads in his posts. Maybe the name is pushing me to this thought, but SK comes to mind when I read Maniac's posts."

I don't expect my reads to be agreed with by everyone, but I don't think anyone can say I haven't contributed reads and challenged people to do the same. Coming from someone like Y2 who has done next to nothing his read of me is bizarre. I think he has been lazy, skimming the posts and going through the motions in belatedly posting his 'reads'. Reptiles are lazy. They already know who the reptiles and humans are. If I move my vote from krellin it'll go onto Y2.

Y2 then says this...

"6. krellin: I had a hard time distinguishing krellin's behavior from the two times I played with him, where both times we were on opposite teams. My gut says he's town, but I wouldn't put money on it. I did start to come over to his idea of not lynching someone today, but since most others are fervently for a lynch, we all have to be to ensure the town has the majority of voices in the deciding vote."

This just screams one reptilian talking in code to another. I've fed the above into my bable fish reptile to English translator and here is the result...

"Hisssssss krellin old buddy, loooove your tactic of getting govt dancing around discussing procedure, I'll try and make you look a bit more govt official type, but you have to drop this resistance to voting. We may need your vote to get one of these poor suckers shot....see you tonight xxx"

Actually, maniac, that is not a bad point. I now share your concern about y2k.

Although it is very dependent on krellin also being scum, and I can't get much of a read on that.

Maniac is beating you to the creative story writing, guak. I'm sure I make an easy target to point at now given I haven't posted much at all yet. I am town though.

pj, so my position right now is that we should be voting/lynching someone on day 1. I referenced this in my read on Krellin that Maniac just quoted. This is because a no-lynch approach only works if everyone is for it. If the minority of people want no-lynch, then the town of us that see the benefits in a no-lynch lose those benefits and should absolutely put their vote down on someone so that the mafia can't control the vote as much.

semck, I find it amusing and suspicious you seemed to ignore me and my vote on you until someone else came forward and made a case against me...

bosox, I was seriously considering taking my vote off semck right after the crosspost but figured i'd leave it up until he acknowledged my vote on him. the way he acknowledged it makes me want to leave my vote on semck. reactive play is scummy.

y2k,

Fair enough I suppose. I would have responded to you if I saw much of a case that merited response, but I didn't. Also, as you yourself pointed out, we cross-posted, and I was kind of waiting for an update given the existence of my reads, especially after bo's specific request for one.

Krellin - your suggestion of pulling votes at the last minute would be great, we could make our absurd reads, put pressure on and hope for scum slips and then not kill anyone. The problem is we have 4 non-humans listening to us, so we can't plan as a group to go through motions and then all unvote.

I'm not surprised that you have now voted btw.

Are you going to do anything productive now, like some crazy read that will prob be wrong, but might help others in formulating their opinions?

I'm glad you've voted for me actually. Let's just take this outside. We'll be the only two candidates up for election, as you said earlier we'll prob hit human anyway. Let's see if the rest prefer a lazy, whinny childish pussy flip-flopper or a handsome dude who may be crazy but who wants to put the hard yards in.

Just in case it's not clear, I'm the good looking dude.

I invite you all - choose between me and Krellin. Bring it.

I mean your whole case was, "semck hasn't done anything substantive," and I had just posted my reads. I figured that a response was gratuitous.

@semck/ghug- It's not clear to me why I'm being read as not pushing for lynches when I have posted literally the only in depth accusation (of krellin) and also have elicited the defensiveness which is the basis of semck's scum read of Squigs. I would argue that I've been objectively the most helpful townie thus far, and it's not close.

Anyway, about this whole krellin thing- I think in some sense his reaction of sticking his fingers in his ears and crying probably leans slightly townie, but it's almost bad for us to read it that way, as it gives scum a way to "act townie" which is completely unhelpful. It's probably not worth a policy lynch, but it's close. Maybe vig? ##unvote for now, but I'm not really seeing any better options.

Here are the people I see as potentially good options:

squigs- I agree that he was overly defensive in the beginning, but it's also true that he was defensive last game, and really seemed over all more scummy last game if anything. Having said that, we can "grade people on a curve" a little bit, but fundamentally scummy behavior is scummy. I like the start of semck's case on him, but I'd like to see a legit accusation.

bosox- Going the other direction, I do think that squigs was right in identifying the single scummiest non-krellin thing that has happened thus far, which was bosox's post that essentially said "P.S. Can everyone please coach me on how to seem town?" Hate that/would vote if the BW were between him and someone not squigs or krellin.

y2k- He seems scummy, but I think only in relation to krellin. I'm remembering y2k being one of the main champions of a first day lynch in M2 (maybe that's wrong, he can correct if so), so it is very strange to me that he is switching his tune this time. It's one of those cases where sticking one's neck out, even when wrong, probably leans town, though. Basically at this point it's hard to find even a 4th scummy person because nobody is posting anything.

A couple of people I have comments about that aren't strictly scum related:
- pj has gone from scum telling hard in M2, to scum telling a little in M3, to not scum telling at all in M4, in my estimation. Maybe he is just learning, but I have pj as one of my top town reads so far.
- I don't think we should lynch ILN for lurking, especially in light of his new post, as he is truly new to the game and is probably just getting his feet wet. (There also is the meta reason that we want new players to enjoy playing so we get more players) If he can't handle it, he will likely get replaced, so we shouldn't lynch him just for being new.

Just a reminder from the general mafia discussion thread, I start my (first ever) job today, so obviously that's my priority for the next few days at least. I'll try my best to log on as much as possible, but that is mainly going to be at night EST going forward.

I am really, really concerned about Squigs looking for the power roles. I think it's okay to wonder, and I'm sure everyone at some point wonders who the power roles are, but that kind of thing needs to stay in your head. Once he let that slip, though, it's no longer a thought; it's an effort to get someone else to provide him that information. That's a scum tell if there ever was one, and it was immediate, which suggests he might have taken a gamble early on thinking no one would notice, or maybe he just began a little rusty and slipped.

Also, having reread page two after semck's read, it seems apparent to me that Squigs wasn't simply defending against an accusation, he was attacking right back. He called out uclabb as scum on page two for starting a discussion about WIFOM - that was definitely odd. He tried to defend it but it was a clear return accusation, and it was exactly the kind of reaction that one would look for when trying to bait a little early in the day. I just don't buy that he misspoke. Calling someone scum within hours of the beginning of the game isn't misspeaking.

I'm going to ##VOTE Squigs for now, and if he's town, he's played it very badly so far. That's not to say I'm certain, but I'm really not confident that krellin is mafia so far.

@ILN … going by instincts doesn't have to be a joke. You can go by instincts, as long as you can back them up. I'm glad you backed off of WD because he didn't really provide us all that much information even though he made himself stick out momentarily. It's too early to know what's going on with him, and I'll be more confident in judging him once he's more active.

I think you make a point about krellin in that he's insecure and potentially hiding something, but that case isn't nearly as strong as Squigs'. It's worth keeping an eye on him, so keep your suspicions noted and watch to see what happens with them over the rest of the day.

@krellin … can you build on Maniac? If there's a case against him, I'm all ears, but if you're just trying to reverse the trend, no one's going to bite at a one-liner.

@Maniac … no worries, water under the bridge.