Just because a notion is popular, does not mean it is bad. "Drink water"....a fairly popular concept, agreed to by most everyone. I guess to Mafia water is therefore bad.

You "society said so...it must be bad" attitude is childish at best...demented and dangerous at worst.

Also, rape is a lot more prevalent than sexual disembowelings. And that does make a difference. Sexual disembowelings are pretty extreme things. Rape happens to 1 in 6 people.

Mafia - again, that isn't fair.

You're taking my words, "Krellin and Draugnar are not *hurting* anything," and turning them into "Krellin and Draugnar approve of the status quo." Please respectfully keep focused on my actual words, not what you'd like to argue against.

"that moving sidewalk analogy fits in perfectly actually with exactly what I disagree with" - What. I just, I don't even know what to say to that. It's not an assumption that if we don't move forwards we're always moving backwards, it's observable reality. If we don't fight injustice and oppression and violence it doesn't just go away. It continues to propagate itself and impact the world negatively.

I am focused on your words. I'm just thinking about the implications of them more deeply than you are. Think about it. Draugnar and krellin also are not helping anything. If you're not making things better, and you aren't actively trying to make things worse, then whether you mean to be or not, you're in favour of things as they are now. And we call that the status quo.

I agree with that, actually. Just don't tell me it's my responsibility to be a soldier for xxx cause. There are a lot of them out there and I'll be the one who chooses which ones I fight for, not you.

For the rest, I'm doing enough to keep my penis on the outside of people who don't appreciate it as much as I do.

Alright. I suppose you do get to choose that. But that doesn't mean you're absolved of all responsibility. It just means you've chosen to ignore that.

"...And we call that the status quo."

You can be against something while not actively fighting to oppose it. I disagree with your assertion that if a body does not actively oppose something that means they necessarily favor it. Nobody here favors rape. We just aren't willing to do what you feel is necessary to stop it. In fact, I believe K and D don't even feel it would do any good if we did (I'm not sure how I feel about that).

"...absolved of all responsibility..." and now we've come full circle. As I said, that's the heart of my larger disagreement with you. Always fun talking with you Mafia, help me keep things in more perpsective.

Night man.

Also, it's not even like I'm asking them to take up the cause. All I'm saying is, they need to stop saying that women should do more to defend themselves. STOP SAYING THOSE THINGS. That's not an especially onerous task.

I don't doubt that krellin and Draugnar are opposed to rape. I'm sure neither of them wants rape to happen. But if they're not going to do anything that actually opposes the ideas that support rape culture, then they aren't actually putting themselves in opposition to it. And if they're actually going to REPEAT the ideas which support rape culture, whatever their intent is, it's pretty nuts to argue that they're opposing rape culture. Whatever their intentions are kinda doesn't matter. I've said it 100 times, intent doesn't erase effect. Whatever it is you intend to do, we have to look at the effects of your actions.
To go back to a car driving analogy. If I slam on the brakes to avoid hitting a jaywalking pedestrian, but I don't stop in time and hit him anyway, is it fair of me to claim that I didn't hit the pedestrian because I tried not to? No it isn't, because whatever I tried to do, there's still pedestrian juice smeared all over my bumper.

Draugnar might WANT to help women against rape, but if his words have the unintended effect of promoting a victim blaming culture, he can't really claim he's helping against rape. He's got the best of intentions I'm sure, but that's not enough. If I wanted to argue against people who actually wanted rape to happen I'd go visit an MRA forum. I know that that's not what anyone here wants. If you feel I've accused you of liking rape or something, I'm terribly sorry, but you must have misinterpreted me. What I meant is, even though you had the best of intentions, you're doing more harm than good.

@Mafia - My words do *not* promote a victim blaming culture. How many times do I have to point out that I am *encouraging* women to stand up for themselves and takme back the fucking night. Jesus Christ. Have you not heard of the "Take Back the Night" movement? *Everything* I have said so far is *promoted* by the leaders of that movement - women *who have been raped*. So *you* are arguind=g that I am supporting the rape culture when I am *actually supporting rape victims*! You are a fucking moron for not listening closer. Go research take back the night and you'll see I'm right.

I like your arguing style draugnar. You just completely didn't read a single post I made in between your last post and this one. Not a single one. Which is impressive because I've made a lot. You can't have or you'd have more to say. Now listen to me.
Arguing that women aren't doing enough to defend themselves from rape promotes victim blaming. End. Of. Story.

"Take Back the Night is an action created to enable large numbers of women to publicly express our anger at the sexual violence that goes on and the victim blaming that accompanies it. Not every woman has been sexually assaulted, but every woman has been taught to fear it. We are told from the time we are young not to walk alone, not to go out after dark, to avoid strangers and to avoid dangerous areas of town. This advice is useless in the face of the reality that the largest number of women experience violence in their own home, at the hand of someone they know. The Take Back the Night March is a public protest organized by women, for women. It serves as a means for women to unite and voice our desire to end the fear and perceived responsibility women experience when it comes to sexual assault, harassment, and other forms of violence."
I'm familiar with Take Back the Night, Draugnar, I suggest you read over that blurb there. There's a few key points you're missing.

@mafia - Sorry I was doing taxes and this forum with it's pagination is a pain to go back and read the history. So yes, I missed quite a bit about it.

The TBTN rallies I went to with a friend (who had been raped) still promoted being sfae, they just argued they shoudln't have to be. There is a difference between saying "you were stupid for doing X" and saying "Listen up! I don't want to see you get hurt and there are assholes out there who will take advantage of you. Please do X so I feel confident you are safe when I can't be around."

Do you see the difference? One blames the victim. The other tells a loved one you fucking care!

"Women are often told to be extra careful and take precautions when going out at night. In some parts of the world, even today, women are not allowed out at night. So when women struggle for freedom, we must start at the beginning by fighting for freedom of movement, which we have not had and do not now have. We must recognize that freedom of movement is a precondition for anything else. It comes before freedom of speech in importance because without it freedom of speech cannot in fact exist."
— The Night and Danger by Andrea Dworkin

I see a difference in intent. I do not see a difference in effect.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=funny+anti+feminist+pictures&start=102&um=1&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=627&tbm=isch&tbnid=ufhkAnrnQQ7nEM:&imgrefurl=http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/3242304/Google%2Bis%2Banti-feminist/&docid=K0Uuo2G7DsFrnM&imgurl=http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Google%252Bis%252Banti-feminist..%252BMy%252Bfriend%252Btold%252Bme%252Bto%252Btype%252Bthis_d0b54d_3241860.jpg&w=648&h=709&ei=E-qMT_KhLeHu0gGynf3HCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1086&vpy=277&dur=716&hovh=235&hovw=215&tx=146&ty=95&sig=107206874085688138391&page=5&tbnh=146&tbnw=132&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:102,i:72

The difference is I tell it to a loved one. She takes it to heart and maybe, just maybe, avoids becoming a future victim. No guarantee, but it improves her chances. I also tell my niece to park her car under a street lamp if she knows she will be at work late. She does so because she knows it is the *smart* thing to do and she is no idiot.

Every women has the freedom to be stupid just as every man does. Want to get mugged and possibly killed as a man? Walk through Over-the-Rhein decked out and blinged up. I should have the right to walk anywhere I like wearing anything I like and feel safe, but I don't. So I don't do stupid shit. Women should have the same right, but they don't either. Facing reality means realizing that there are places you don't go and things you don't do because the potential for disaster and pain increases.

I fully agree that *everyone* should be able to walk whatever street they chose dressed how they want, but there are bad people out there. And no amount of positive reinforcement is going to change the fact that going to certain areas dressed a certain way or acting a certain way is a recipe for troule no matter what sex or race you are.

I find it funny how in a forum full of people who play diplomacy, and thus should be very good at understanding implications, connotations, and the unintended meanings of the words we use, the right wingers are so consistently unable to grasp that it's possible to say one thing, and have someone interpret something else. How is it that people don't get that the context in which words are said changes the meanings of those words. If I'm at 16 SC's and I send a 2 SC power a message that says "Alliance?" it'll sound like I'm sayin, "I want to use you to get the win".
But if I'm a 2 SC power and I send a 16 SC power that same message will be taken to mean the opposite; "If you let me survive, I'll give you the win."

Similarly, if we lived in a culture that thoroughly and completely condemned rape, an anti-rape culture, but it still happened now and then, and we had people saying "Women should be more careful going out at night." it would probably seem innocuous and probably quite helpful. On the other hand, in a culture where rape victims often feel more guilt than their rapists do, that same sentence takes on a very very different meaning, regardless of intent. You see how that works?

copy and paste my link :)

And again, I feel the need to clarify. I'm not opposed to women being careful. I'm not. But I don't think the priority should be disseminating the message "Women be careful!" We're already teaching that, all the time. That message is getting around. Everyone has heard it! The problem is not that women don't realize the necessity of caution.
The problem is, "Women be careful!" has become so dominant a message that it becomes far too easy to ignore the fact that the kind of caution you're referring to Draugnar won't do a blind bit of good to help most rape victims.
It won't help the rape victims who are raped by romantic partners, dates, boyfriends and even husbands. It won't help the children who are raped by parents, family members, friends, acquaintances, teachers, religious figures etc.
The point is, by putting so much emphasis on caution and modest dress, you're being misleading about how most rape occurs.
And so, when a woman is endlessly careful in the ways you described and still gets raped, what is she supposed to think? She's heard you endlessly going on about all the things she needs to do to avoid rape, and she's still been raped.
Do you see how even well meaning admonishments to dress a certain way, to not go to certain places at a certain time, can lead to victim blaming, even if you're not directly doing it yourself? In the context of someone who has just been raped? In a culture that subconsciously teaches women that it's their fault if they get raped?

The point is, you might not actually be saying "it's your fault if you get raped" but the fact is, the only information being emphasized is what women can do to avoid being raped. That's the only information out there. The only information available is about how women can avoid being raped. And then women get raped, and again, the only thing anyone is told about preventing that is what women can do to prevent it. Do you see how that might lead to people arriving at the conclusion, unconsciously, that the responsibility rests with women to avoid being raped?

I realize I've reiterated the same point like 3 times in this post, but you seem not to be getting it, so I figured repetition couldn't hurt.

Also, let me illustrate my point by comparing and contrasting what the different sides of this debate are saying.

Victim blamers: It is a woman's responsibility to protect herself from rape.
Draugnar: Women should learn to protect themselves from rape, but it's not her fault if it happens.
Me: We should not be emphasizing self-defense as a rape prevention method.

Do you see how your argument is much much more similar to that of the victim-blamers than mine? Do you see how if you came to this debate more or less a layman, but steeped in a victim blaming culture might see your argument as complementary to, or as a watered down version of the victim-blamers? Do you see how a recent and traumatized rape victim might read your message and say "He's right. If I'd learned to defend myself, or if I'd learned to be more careful this would never have happened to me."

@Mafi - what you don't get is I never said any of this prevents the rapes. I said it mitigates the risk.

But let's say we take your approach and stop saying what they shoudl do to protect themselves tomorrow. Then every female born from tomorrow on never hears the message, never learns what they can do to reduce their risk, and the next generation becomes a helpless generation who says "Why didn't my mom and dad and teachers and police officers tell me?!"

And let's say that we promote *only* certain people telling the child (the aforementioned list is a good one), what do the rest of us say to our loved ones - friends and family, and how do we assage our fears of what could happen to the women in our lives?

"But let's say we take your approach and stop saying what they shoudl do to protect themselves tomorrow. Then every female born from tomorrow on never hears the message" - Hahahaha, yep, the only thing standing between women, and total ignorance of how to protect themselves is you Draugnar. There's absolutely NOWHERE else where they'll hear about all the ways they can protect themselves. You're the only person bearing that message. Listen, the idea that there are things women can do to protect themselves from rape is never going to go away. The scenario where everyone stops saying that is so mindbogglingly unlikely that discussing it is completely pointless. We don't need more of this stuff that sounds so much like the things the victim-blamers say, but which the person saying it swears up and down it isn't. We don't need more suggestions about how women can restrict their behaviour to protect themselves from rape. We have way more than enough of that already, thank you very much.

You don't seem to understand what promote means. To promote means to try and make something INCREASE. If we want to maintain something at its current level we don't promote it. You promote information you think isn't prevalent enough, not information that is too prevalent.

And as for your question, what should we do to assuage our fears that something terrible will happen to our loved ones? Fight rape culture where you see it. When someone makes a joke that involves rape say "Dude, not funny." When you hear a story of a woman coming forward about rape don't say "Oh but this is probably one of those false rape reports." Those are extremely rare, the VAST majority of reported rapes actually occurred. When someone says something didn't really count as rape, because it was date rape, acquaintance rape or something, and not like, you know, RAPE rape, tell him he's wrong, and tell him why; because any sex without consent or with dubious consent is rape. What can you do to help protect the women in your life from rape? Stop tolerating a culture which has made rape acceptable, and even prevalent. Turn this around. Lay the blame squarely and unequivocally where it belongs. And that means more than just saying "the rapist is always to blame but..." It means you stop tolerating a culture that has allowed victim blaming to become normalized. That's what you can do. It probably doesn't feel as concrete, but it'll do a hell of a lot more good than repeating all the same self defense advice we've all heard 100 times before.

"Hahahaha, yep, the only thing standing between women, and total ignorance of how to protect themselves is you Draugnar. There's absolutely NOWHERE else where they'll hear about all the ways they can protect themselves."

So...Mr Contradiction...you are not OPPOSED to women hearing about protection and learnign to protect themselves, and don't deny that this is good knowledge for them to have...it's just that WE shouldn't tell them??? <scratches head...> You're a moron.

"Fight rape culture" We are trying to...YOU are not. The attitude of "if we just don't mention it it will go away..." is childish thinking. Period. Denying that *fact* that rapists exists, regardless of what you say or do, and that rapist will be attracted to certain things more than others, regardless of what you say or do, is childish thinking.

You can either 1. be prepared or 2. make yourself an easier victim by living in some Utopian fantasy where good thoughts make the world a better place.

"But let's say we take your approach and stop saying what they shoudl do to protect themselves tomorrow. Then every female born from tomorrow on never hears the message, never learns what they can do to reduce their risk, and the next generation becomes a helpless generation who says "Why didn't my mom and dad and teachers and police officers tell me?!""

...you have to tell women to protect themselves...? I mean really, come on. I'm pretty sure that from the moment a young girl learns what rape is, she's going to want to learn how to protect herself on her own accord. A simple Google search can tell you how effective pepper spray, tasers, etc. are for self-defense, and where to get them, and can also help a woman locate self-defense classes if she feels the need to take that extra step - and absent the availability of Google (you know, not everyone having Internet and whatnot), I'm sure freaking asking someone about it is fine.

So the idea that women will suddenly all be helpless if everyone isn't repeating the self-defense mantra 10 bajillion times implicitly asserts that women are somehow incapable of looking up basic self-defense techniques and equipment. Nice one.

@Draugnar: I think you're missing the point. When you say "a woman should protect herself from rape" you mean that women should fight rape however possible. But a rapist would hear "if a woman doesn't protect herself sufficiently from rape, then she deserves it."

You would beat the living pulp out of any man who raped a woman, but the point is that you can't know who that is. So in order to discourage rape, you should try to help in creating a social narrative that defines rape as *entirely* the fault of the rapist, regardless of what the victim did or did not do. At the moment, the narrative is *solely* about how women should protect themselves. We talk to women about rape, but not to men. That's what needs to change if we want to accomplish any change in the long run.

@Krellin
I'm not even going to try because I don't think I can distract you from ejaculating on the forum anyways.