uclabb - you are missing my point, and I think it is intentional. I'm not going to start repeating and reposting everything when it is there for you to read. If you have a specific question, ask it.

Better yet...move on. You already suspect me because I dared express a contrary opinion. I get it. I see a dim future for this town with you as a vocal leader.

quak -- you are a madman, as always. I remember you, my little story-telling friend...we've butted heads before if you recall.

Well gentleman -- I guess the decision seems to have a growing support: krellin is not supposed to express his opinion if it is not in lockstep with everyone else.

Check. Point taken.

I guess I'll stop posting. Have a great night.

@krellin: I really think that if you are town you should not be using that argument. I am sure you recall that because you used that exact argument on M2 I found you out as scum. I think you are a smart guy, so you would not make the same mistake twice. But I could be wrong. Either way a townie should not use such an argument because retreating into a shell and not offering further opinions because someone called you out is awfully scummy. I for one want to see your reads on others as I have a feeling you are town this time around, but even if you are scum again I want to see your reads so there is more information around that can be evaluated to try to determine if there is an actual case against you.

In summary, post your reads and stop your silly fight with uclabb.

krellin contradiction #3: He claims that he has accepted that we are going to lynch someone on day 1, and yet he doesn't want us to discuss who to lynch. That makes no sense.

Guak, if you think I'm mafia because I posted reads, put effort into them, and am trying to learn how to post better reads because that's only the second time I've ever done so, then fine, vote for me, but that is the single worst argument ever.

@bo_sox: you completely misread me. I am calling you out for caring about what others think of your reads. Basically, for your PS. Townies don't care about other's opinions on their reads. Scum does. Either way, I do not think you are scum, at least not yet, which is why I am not voting for you.

I completely misread you? I read you town... should I not have?

FWIW, I think it is great that you posted well thought reads on mostly everyone and that you dedicated effort to it. You are one of the few so far who has taken the trouble and I find these opinion lists quite useful. WOuld love to see one from everyone.

lol you misread me again. I am not talking about your reads, I am talking about how you understood my resonse to your reads. It seems to me that you thought I was accusing you of being scum for posting reads and that is preposterous. I simply said that your PS where you ask others to help you with your reads is scummy behavior since a townie does not care as much for his image in other's minds as scum does.

I asked if anyone had some suggestions to make my reads more accurate. Damn, what a scum tell. I don't see how it has anything to do with my image.

Alright, ghug has caught up. I'm going to post a few thoughts, and they're going to be disorganized, and y'all are going to have to deal with it because this is 'murrica and I do what I want.


I find neither bo nor Warden suspicious. There are other people I don't find suspicious, such as Maniac, but I single (double?) out these two specifically because I was sure I would find them suspicious just because past interactions have led me to be suspicious of them regardless of alignment. This doesn't really mean anything except that these are my initial townreads, but I thought I'd share because I just spent seven hours in a car with my family and y'all are so much more fun to talk to than crying five-year-olds.

I don't really like what a lot off people are saying about WIFOM. uclabb and Maniac are right in that it's certainly more likely that the lizards will kill whomever they perceive as their biggest target, but especially in the early game, that can mean very little. If uclabb dies tonight, it could be because the mafia knows that he's good at this game and want to kill him before they draw his ire. It could be because one of them is krellin. It could be because they want to point out that I used him specifically as my example here. It could be because I'm a lizard and I want to point out how ridiculous it would be for me to use him as an example and then kill him. It could be for any number of other reasons. We simply don't know. As we get to the late game, such things will obviously mean more, as was evidenced by YJ's kills last game, but early-game night actions specifically, such as PE's roleblock last game that was used as evidence against an innocent me, and all WIFOM in general, such as Chaqa's early joke posts this game, definitely need to be considered under a certain light and not weighted too heavily in arguments.

Krellin old buddy, I think you proved in M2 that you're too smart for this crap. I know that my biggest regret from that game was giving you a free pass because you're krellin and this is not the forum. You played us all beautifully that game, like the flute you pretend is Ron Paul's swollen member, and I'm not going to let you do the same thing here. You're certainly entitled to have an opinion, and it's good for you to share it, but think please, and do try to help the town. Saying "day one lynch is useless, as we'll probably kill town" is simply a terrible and empty argument. You've said yourself that we won't know anymore come day two, so by your logic we should just never lynch anyone, and I hope it is clear how obviously bad that is. We need as much information on voting patterns and interactions as possible so that we can figure out who the other mafia are once the first one is lynched. We need to lynch every day so that we can catch that elusive first lizard as soon as possible. If we were to not lynch instead, what would you suggest as a plan of action going forward?

Squigs strikes me as pretty damn suspicious right now. Last game, he did this thing where he tried his hardest to make himself likable and agreeable. He's doing the same thing here, and while I'm trying not to hold that against him, as it is likely just the way he plays and suspicion of it led me to help in his mislynch last game, it does paint a negative picture, especially in conjunction with his overreaction to jokes, his freaking out about casting votes around, and his concern over power roles, also this sentence is running on quite a bit and I don't care and did I mention that I was just in a car for seven hours with crying children, which has caused me to be a little loopy and I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish Wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes. ##VOTE Squigs

I'm with uclabb on this one,

## vote krellin

Reason? My *human* instincts.

@Bo
WD's vote for chaqa was pretty suspicious, at least for me. He's trying to play it off as "oh well, i might as well vote for him, for now.." when in fact it's pretty clear that chaqa was joking, and so trying to lynch chaqa is trying to get rid of a human early on in the game, a great advantage to the reptiles.

I mean, does anyone seriously consider chaqa to be a reptile? It would be a pretty stupid move to attract so much attention to yourself instead of keeping a low profile.

Also, everyone is acting really whiny and annoying, which I should have expected given the fact that we're all top government officials, but still, let's try to lighten up a bit.

bo, I have a suggestion for you. Stop caring what others think about your reads. FWIW, I thought they were pretty good, but you're probably smart enough to form those opinions on your own, and allowing others to influence your actions in such a way can really only benefit crafty mafia players who offer to take you under their wing/tail/lizardy body part.

@ghug ... that explanation actually makes sense. Much better than "you're clearly mafia because you're a noob." Thanks.

@ILN ... I think Chaqa has dropped that vote and WD came clean about it being an overreaction. For what it's worth, if the joke part of Chaqa's opening remarks went over your head, it'd be easy to call it out as a scum slip.

Regarding his attracting attention to himself, I think he did so unintentionally, and has since been trying to move the attention somewhere else by lurking. He really hasn't posted anything remotely useful so far. It's too early to determine if that's a clear sign that he's mafia, but it certainly should raise an eyebrow.

Also, ILN, I know us two aren't the only ones that vote on instinct, but since I'm still undecided on who is the best option here, can you try to find something that supports your instinct? Seeing a second case besides uclabb's would help me.

Day 1 Vote Count Update 2

Chaqa (2): Chaqa, Maniac
krellin (3): pjmansfield99, uclabb, ILN
Squigs44 (1): ghug

Not voting (8): y2kjbk, krellin, semck83, Squigs44, captainmeme, guak, bo_sox48, WardenDresden

Currently KRELLIN is set to be lynched!

19 hours and 40 minutes remain.

Hmm, this thread is really long, so i skimmed over it before posting. I think i missed the part where chaqa dropped the vote. Anyways, I still suspect WD. I might be wrong though, he might as well be a human, which is why i didn't vote for him, just pointed out it was suspicious to vote to lynch chaqa.

Perhaps i'm being naive or something, but there's something about Krellin's post that makes it really suspicious to me.

I'll give a list of what scummy shit krellin did tmw, It's a bit late now. But go and reread his posts, and you'll see what i mean.

I'll grant you sleep and wait till tomorrow for your explanation, but I'm not going to go back and do it for you before then. I assume you understand. I'll be on most of the day tomorrow, but I don't know if I'll be on when the day ends (19 hours and 40 minutes from 11:19 means the phase ends sometime around 6-ish EST tomorrow, correct?), so there's no real rush.

I guess I can ##CALL GM on that - the day ends around 6 EST tomorrow?

The Day will end at 7:00 P.M EDT.

@Krellin -

“INstead of dismissing the activity as not interesting, please chime in on these boring topics and let us start to get a read on you...

Are you FOR or AGAINST the day 1 lynch, and WHY?”

I have actually already posted my opinions on a day 1 lynch and WIFOM, and I would rather hunt scum than beat a dead horse, so here is what I already posted:

“Uclabb, did you want me to add my opinion about WIFOM?? Because I dont completely understand it. I think that WIFOM is just a psychological way of saying that you cant know something for sure, specifically someone's motivation for doing something. Obviously you will never know for sure, but it is the degree to which you are sure of something that matters. In true WIFOM cases, it is about 50/50 to whether someone did what was expected of them or not. Like you said, in mafia, those cases rarely exist, and the scum will almost always do what benefits them most. Basically you need to gauge everything as a whole, so the smaller WIFOM instances do not matter enough to make a big deal about.”

“@krellin - a no vote will give us no information. A vote gives us information. If you choose not to vote, then you really dont have any more information on day 2 then you do on day 1. You might have a little extra time to talk about things, but do you really think that we are going to expose the scum by simply talking for an extra 48 hours?? The mafia would love to have a no lynch, because their only chance of dying is a lynch (and I guess SK).”

“a yes vote gives you a 10/14 chance of having the first death a townie. a no vote gives you a 100% chance (minus the chance of a doc save) that the first death is a townie (mafia's kill).”

@ILN - ILN is either just really new, and doesnt know how to play this game, or he is scum. First, he does my least favorite thing, and votes without giving good reasoning:

“I'm with uclabb on this one,

[][] vote krellin

Reason? My *human* instincts.”

Then, when he is pressed to give his reasoning on why he thought that WD and Krellin were suspicious, he comes up with this post:

“Hmm, this thread is really long, so i skimmed over it before posting. I think i missed the part where chaqa dropped the vote. Anyways, I still suspect WD. I might be wrong though, he might as well be a human, which is why i didn't vote for him, just pointed out it was suspicious to vote to lynch chaqa.

Perhaps i'm being naive or something, but there's something about Krellin's post that makes it really suspicious to me.

I'll give a list of what scummy shit krellin did tmw, It's a bit late now. But go and reread his posts, and you'll see what i mean.”

First, he hedges on WD when he says that he suspects WD, but he might be human, and that he isnt really sure. Then he doesnt give reasoning on Krellin, he just directs us to his posts. I realize that he said he doesnt have any time, but he could have just listed off one or two reasons, like “Krellin has suggested bad ideas” or “Krellin has not hunted any scum” or “Krellin was joking around at the beginning” or something simple like that.

Like I said though, he could just be a newbie that is struggling to grasp the game, I know that a lot of my scum read on Maniac last game was because of some of his inexperience.

@ghug - Were you high when you posted your read on me?? I dont know how flowers and perfume are related to my posts at all.

Cool, thanks Vashta.

Has captainmeme even posted?

Come on lurkers, come out come out wherever you are.

@ghug: thanks for explaining to bosox better than me why asking for input on his own reads is dangerous and possibly scummy.

@ILN: I am looking forward to read your research project on krellin. I for one find you way more scummy than krellin so far. You have been hinting that you think he is a lizard but have yet to give a well thought reason. Also, your *human* instincts look scummy to me. Why would anyone say *human* instead of human when referring to himself? It looks like a mutant/lizard slip to me. Either that or one the most stupid things a townie could do.

Meme posted a few pages back - hold on, I'll find it.

I have to get going for the night, but I will earnestly try to do a re-read and theory post tomorrow (I should be able to, no issue)

Bottom of page 4.

Regarding the word "human" I think we are all just trying to come up with the right terms. There's reptilians and government, aliens and humans, scum and townies, mafia and villagers, etc etc. I wouldn't read too much into it, at least not now. Later on though, should we come up with an agreeable term list or is that too much?

@Squigs, it's a quote from Ulysses. I was making fun of my run on sentence. The first half is perfectly legitimate though.