I dunno. At heart OP's message is worth thinking about, but my guess is you have to be a bit of a sociopath to be a rapist, so I'm not at all surprised if they think, "everybody's doing it."

I don't think I'll be letting some scumbag put the blame on me (or Eddie Murphy) for his own decisions. If his morality is so loose that jokes would allow him to justify something like this to himself, then I really don't think one could blame the joke.

In practice, I think that if everybody stopped joking about rape, rape incidence would decrease. But if everybody cut out their tongue, so would hate speech.

On the subject of clothing I believe it's correct that rape is also a big (if not bigger) problem in certain Arab countries where the woman all dress like sacks of potatoes. From that it is safe to conclude that the style of clothing a woman wears probably doesn't make rapists more or less likely to commit the crime.

Having said that I find it very easy to believe that scantily clad women are more likely to be raped than those modestly dressed, in much the same way as the people wearing the more extravagant hats were more likely to be shot in 19th century warfare.

In conclusion I would say a scantily clad woman who is raped whilst walking home alone at night has done nothing to provoke the rape, which is entirely the fault of the rapist, but is none the less a complete idiot for doing so.

"@Mafia - I agree about the use of the word and taking it lightly. I was just disagreeing with saying that encouraging a woman to be aware of her surroundings and her attire is blaming the victim. It isn't the rapist is *always* to blame. But there are things a woman can do to minimize her risk exposure, like *not* walking down that dark alley at 2 AM doing the walk of shame home in a tight miniskirt and low cut top still buzzed from the booze she downed before going home with that guy she met earlier that evening. It's about using common sense and being aware of your surroundings. In her case, she should take the walk of shame to a *cab* she had called and waited for inside the apartment building entrance.

It isn't blaming the victim to say she should take measures to mitigate her risk.

If someone crosses a street without bothering to look and gets run down by a drunk driver or joy riding kid, is it blaming them to say they should have at least looked first? We all take measures to mitigate our exposure to risk every day. I don't turn right on red unless I've checked to see it is clear. I don't operate my riding mower or gas trimmer/hedger without noise reducing earmuffs, long clothes, and steel toes boots. I don't cut boards with any of my saws without the safety guard in place and I wait until the blade has completely stopped if I need to get anything away from it."

This is also making me pretty upset. This analogy is the perfect example of victim blaming and it is entirely wrong yet common. On the news you hear about someone getting hit and killed by a drunk driver, you don't hear that they were out driving at 3am. How come then, when a woman is raped we (society in general) concentrate on the woman's dress and where she was. That is horrible.

As far as your analogy goes Draug, it horrifies me. Sure, walking home alone might not be the best decision, but to equate that to recklessly walking into traffic is awful. You are taking the blame away from the rapists and putting it on the victims. To be honest, I find it disgusting. While we are telling women to dress differently, why don't we just tell them to stay in the house 24 hours a day. Then they wouldn't ever get raped. Then if a woman leaves the house its only her fault that she gets raped. How is that for some victim blaming?

Well said Tom! Maybe it they all wore bright blue jackets and yellow boots they wouldn't have to worry.

Draugnar the driving analogy is a false and potentially damaging one. The fact is, if I cross the street without looking, presumably any car who's way I get in is going to slam on the breaks and try to not hit me. Presumably the driver of the car doesn't want to injure/kill me. But sometimes his brakes just aren't quick enough, some stopping distances just aren't long enough no matter how good your brakes are. Some people just don't see you. It's an accident.

No one rapes anyone accidentally. Whatever a woman might be wearing, any man can resist raping her. It's not as though, when she went outside wearing a short skirt, the nearest man was already careening towards raping her, and tried to stop but just didn't make it in time. He made a conscious choice to do it. And whether you realized that implication or not, the idea that men can't help themselves does serve to excuse their behaviour. It's the same logic behind burqas and niqabs. "The sight of a woman dressed a certain way stirs certain urges in a man and he just can't help himself." And you know what, burqas and niqabs don't help. It's really hard to come up with rape statistics on places where burqas and/or niqabs are widely worn, but I doubt it's because rape doesn't happen there.

And also a point to consider. Rape victims blame themselves for their attacks. The website of the Pandora's Project, "a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to providing information, support, and resources to survivors of rape and sexual abuse and their friends and family... since 1999" has a forum. And on this forum one of the most frequently posted questions is "Was it my fault?" Just think about that. They could list "Is it my fault I got raped?" on their FAQ page. So don't underestimate the power of a victim blaming culture. Since you gave the car analogy, among people who survive being hit by a car, are they tormented with guilt over being run over? Do burglary victims ask whether they're responsible for their houses being broken into? I doubt it.

Also for spyman http://www.911rape.org/facts-quotes/statistics
Apparently the 1 in 6 women have been raped statistic comes from a study conducted by the CDC. It was in the 90's so that's a little out of date, but like, as recently as the 90's studies done by reputable government organizations back up that number so I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

Ah! I'm glad you showed up Tom! I was beginning to worry no one agreed with me.

I think the heart of this question is this:

Does or does not the blame for committing rape lie solely on the shoulders of the rapist?

If it does (and I feel it does), then of course we should never hold a woman at fault even partially due to her choices in dress or lifestyle. But then we also absolutely cannot hold the rapist's peers to blame either for offhanded comments they may have made.

I feel you can't have it both ways. Either a person is responsible for their own actions, or they are not.

Why don't we hear more useless and most of the time actually detrimental advice akin to "don't go outside at night alone in skirt"?

Some candidates:
Don't buy a car if you don't want it stolen.
Stop washing and buying new clothes if you want to keep your pockets intact.
Don't bring a dog home if you don't want to get it poisoned.
Don't tell your friend about your family vacation when riding on a bus if you don't want to get robbed.

Guess what, women know that being alone at night is risky. Everyone knows that. You may stop repeating it, it isn't enlightening anyone.

A law-abiding citizen can do whatever she wants and bears absolutely no responsibility for any crime commited against her.

Sorry for having high life expectations in a civilized country.

I agree YJ. Also, on a side note this has a big connection to the whole Trayvon Martin hoodie deal....

I disagree YJ. You're conflating two separate things here. An individual instance of rape and a culture which implicitly condones rape. Now the decision to commit the former is made in the context of the latter, but that does not excuse the rapist. It explains the rapist, it does not excuse him. The decision is still his, and his alone. BUT we live in a culture which teaches men that they should have sexual access to women whenever they like, and we have a responsibility to change that message. We are not all responsible for individual acts of rape, we are responsible for the prevalence of rape in the general case. A different matter entirely.

Since Tom Bombadil made the analogy to Trayvon Martin, I'll continue it.
Only Zimmerman is responsible for shooting him. Only he actually aimed the gun and pulled the trigger.
But the idea that a black kid in a hoodie is dangerous? That was all of us. A culture which led the police to think that not arresting Zimmerman would be OK? That was all of us. See the difference. I'm not suggesting you should be tried for your part of the shooting of Trayvon Martin. But that doesn't mean you have absolutely no responsibility to fight racism. Or that you have no responsibility not to make racist jokes or say racist things.

Lets us look at the car thing you all have a problem with. Here is a more accurate analogy. Teen in car at 3AM is killed by drunk coming home from bar. Drunk is to blame, but we should still encourage young drivers to mitigate their risk but not being out until 3 AM.

As far as the sarcastic stolen car / don't own one... We mitigate thatvrisk with car alarms, taking care where we park, and using the club on the steering wheel plus insurance coverage. No one says we are blaming the victim of the car theft just because he parked in a and neighborhood. We just encourage people to think beforebthey park. It is the same thing. It isn't blaming to encourage a young woman to protect herself. Hell, I say we should offer every women self defense classes for free. It is risk.mitigation. What don't you all get about that?

xoxoxo platonic Hugs & kisses 4 everyone in this thread xoxoxo

We don't live in a culture where people who've had their cars stolen spend years in therapy trying to get over their guilt about the issue.
We don't live in a culture where historically families would disown the victims of car theft.
We don't live in a culture who's religious texts demands that women marry the men who steal their cars.
We don't live in a world where in some countries people are stoned to death for having their cars stolen.
We don't live in a culture where judges will let off car thieves, because really, by parking your car there you were asking for it to be stolen.
That's the difference.

Look, here's an important point you seem not to be grasping. I'm not opposed to the idea of women defending themselves. If I saw a rape in progress, and during the course of it the woman pulled out a can of mace and sprayed her attacker in the face, I would not go up to her and say "You know, by carrying that mace around, you're actually blaming the victim. Really it's this guy's fault; he shouldn't be raping you."

But the fact is, the world in which we live, is one which blames the victims of rape, for being raped as a matter of course. And so every time you say "women should do more to defend themselves" you're adding even more to a discourse in which the default position is already "it's your fault you've been raped".

And also, people keep jumping into this debate and saying "You know, it's not blaming the victim to say XYZ."
Actually it is. What you mean is "It is not my intention to blame the victim by saying XYZ." But intent doesn't erase effect.

Also, finally, the other difference is that being careful when parking your car actually is effective in preventing car theft. All the advice thrown around about how to avoid rape doesn't work. Because the fact is, random street rape is not really how most rape cases happen. Neither is drug facilitated rape at night clubs.

@Mafia -- You are full of shit. We do not live in a world in which rape victims are blamed as a matter of course -- that is absolute trash. Telling someone to *be prepared*, to *be aware* of their surroundings, to *be aware* of their own behaviors and what signals they may or may not send to people is....

Well, it funny, if you are a Boy Scout, "Be Prepared" is a time-honored motto. If you suggest that a women be prepared for demented sexual predators, you are sexist.

You are simply full of shit.

LIVE IN REALITY. RAPISTS ARE NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT AND DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS....hence, if you dress in a manner that draws the eye of a rapist, it is not SOCIETIES fault....it isn't even the woman's fault....but, like it or not, there IS DRESS THAT ATTRACTS THE EYE OF PEOPLE.

Of topic....so tell me, Mafiaalligator....woman walking down the street...big tits, wearing tight shorts and a sports bra. You gonna look? By the way...her nipples are hard...

Mafia I think we do have a fundamental disagreement, because I like and support everything you said except the last bit, "we are responsible for the prevalence of rape in the general case," and then follow up with"or that you have no responsibility not to make racist jokes or say racist things."

On this I wholeheartedly disagree. I have a responsibility to not rape anybody. I have a responsibility to not commit hate crimes against minorities also. But that's the end of my responsibility. I do reject your implication that laughing at a rape joke makes one responsible for the occurrence of rape.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do not reject your causality chain, so I may even be influenced by your words the next time somebody tells an off-color joke, but if I chuckle a bit I'm certainly not going to feel guilty about the possible repercussions of that. And I'm absolutely not going to try to hold anybody else accountable for how they choose to react in the same situation.

Look, I'm going to say this, and everyone is going to jump on it, and it'll be the end of my argument, because you'll all take it as license to just keep on blaming the victim. Women defending themselves is a good thing. People continuing to say that women should defend themselves is a bad thing. We don't need to hear that anymore. That is already the dominant message in the sexual assault discourse. In fact, outside of feminist circles, it's basically the only message. The only thing we ever hear is how important it is for women to learn defense, to not dress certain ways, to not act certain ways, to not talk to certain people, to not go to certain places.

You might not intend to blame the victim, but the context in which you are saying these things makes that the result of your words, regardless of what you intended.

This is the kind of shit which makes me lean towards Mafia's view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE9uWlmhULw

When we laugh and support 'humor' like this, we add to the idea that women are at fault for when they are raped. It sickens me.

I don't think that's at all true Mafia. Nobody here is suggesting that blame lies with anybody but the rapist. Krellin and Draugnar are just saying what we've all heard before. If you want to argue that it doesn't do any good - fine. If you want to argue that that means they are complicit in rape by blaming the victim, you are going too far.

Mafia --- So we should STOP telling Boy Scouts to be prepared.

Answer the question....let's see how your double standard works.

@ Yellowjacket - But how can you take such an amoral stance, and then claim to be opposed to rape or racism? I mean, in that case, the most you can possibly hope to claim is that you're opposed to the idea of being a rapist yourself, or being racist yourself. But apparently if someone else is, it doesn't really bother you.

The point is based on the idea of the moving sidewalk. The argument goes that racism/rape culture, what have you, is a moving sidewalk. Rape culture is the norm, and so, if you don't say or do anything to promote rape culture, you're standing still on a moving sidewalk, which means you're still moving along in the direction that the sidewalk is moving. To actually oppose these things, you need to walk against the direction that the sidewalk is moving you along. And that's what you're refusing to do. You're not going to hold anybody else accountable for choosing to let themselves be dragged along by rape culture, or even oppose people who choose to stride confidently along in the SAME direction as the sidewalk, gleefully promoting rape culture.

That's all you're doing right now. You're standing on the moving sidewalk, refusing to move one way or another and just saying "it's not my fault I'm moving, the sidewalk is dragging me along."

I don't think so at all TB.

If somebody downloads guro and masturbates to it that does not make them responsible for whatever sexual disembowelments happened to have happened that day.

Try answering the question: "BE PREPARED" -- Is it a good motto for Boy Scouts? Is it a good motto for women walking alone? YES OR NO?

"Krellin and Draugnar are just saying what we've all heard before." - Oh, well in that case it's alright. Because obviously the status quo is just fine, and no one needs to fight that at all. Look, we are living in a culture which promotes rape and then blames the victim for it. If you parrot the views of that culture, you are complicit in that culture. I don't even understand what you're trying to argue here. That krellin and Draugnar are saying the same things that rape culture says, and they're not opposing it in any way, but this doesn't mean that they aren't opposed to rape culture? What? So they're opposing rape culture by agreeing with it and not doing anything to oppose it?

Well, I think in a way it does. Increasing the amount of guro being watched would make it more popular to download and could make it more popular in real cases. By making rape a lighthearted issue, instead of the serious issue it is, people may grow up with an incorrect view of what rape is.

If you have a high school kid watching family guy and seeing that rape sketch, you don't think it could have an impression on them? Sure it is the parents job to teach the kids what is right and wrong, but what if the parents don't? Aren't we as a society at fault for putting this "its the woman's fault for leading him on" mentality into mainstream culture?

Mafia --- Answer the question. You dodge quite well, when you have no ground to stand on...must be great at platform games....

So your advice to me is that I should NEVER teach my young daughters to defend themselves....because if I teach them, they will ask "Why do I need to learn this?" and then I would have to tell them WHY girls should learn to defend themselves...and telling girls to be prepared is against your **demented** principle.

You are truly a moron. And, of course, a moron that refuses to address direct questions, as usual...